to dislike Extinction Rebellion

[Azeema]

I live in farming village. We are getting in harvest.
But today on village green extinction rebellion has decided to have a party with drums, loud music and a megaphone. Green is right opposite care home for elderly.
I asked them, who are you protesting? There are no corporations here. Everyone is aware of environment as we grow your food.
They have been very rude, refusing to turn down noise despite disabled residents with migraines suffering.
They made me very upset talking about how England could grow own food and have lower footprint if not so many people (I’m an immigrant) looking at me like I should leave country.

@Jillyhilly now you’re just making massive sweeping assumptions based on absolutely nothing.

I haven’t said I don’t believe people weren’t put out completely by the protests, I was just asking for sources. Which is a reasonable thing to do when having a discussion. Otherwise anything can be said and it descends into madness.

Sorry I missed your last post. First and foremost I’d like the government to declare a climate crisis. And then put into place a realistic and achievable plan of drastically reducing carbon emissions, plastic waste and number of cars on the road within in the next 5 years.

sorry they’re being obnoxious with their music but you can see how people who are genuinely terrified we are destroying humanity’s future can find someone having a migraine a bit trivial. It’s not like it’s the middle of the night.
Yes because having a fecking party with loud noises outside a care home and a place for people recovering head injuries is going to win lots of support. As is going into.rural areas and telling farmers how food production in this country works. Utterly self obsessed not to.mention ignorant. This country isn't self sufficient. It should be but successive governments and big supermarkets have seen to.that. farmers are going out of business daily due to.the pittance they are paid for the food they produce.

Stopping an ambulance from taking a person to hospital is a dick move of gigantic proportions. What if the person had died in the ambulance would that have been ok as long as they got on the news that night?

If you have a good cause you.wamt people on your side not thinking you are selfish, ignorant and obviously hypocritical dick heads. Saving the planet? Well except for the place where we are protesting cos using all the takeaway cups, plastic bottles and flood wrappers obviously don't count when they use them and drop them all over the street for someone else to.clear up.

It's publicity seeking crap. Many people will join a 'cause' but they only want to jump.on the bandwagon to do whatever 'rebellious' thing they like in the name of any cause that comes along.

I am sure many people in XR are genuinely serious in their aims but do not agree with intimidation or harassment of individuals or any of the stuff some members do to endanger other.

Yes climate change is scary, what we are doing to.our planet and the animals on it is horrifying but we should have the means by now to do something about it. It's not individuals who.are causing this it's big corporations and governments.

I am doing what small things I can to do my bit but we can't all suddenly go self sufficient, stop using energy, stop using cars, we can only do what our own lives dictate yet still support those campaigning for climate change. Just not XR as they have ruined all the good they could do by allowing idiots in their midst to alienate the general public.

But MustardScreams every single one of those points is fraught with complexity and we don’t know what the longer knock-on effects of any policy will be, which is what makes this stuff so difficult. How do you know the government will get it right? Look at the government recommendation that we all drive diesel - that didn’t go very well did it? Governments get things wrong all the time.

This is one of the many places where the environmental movement and XR lose me. It’s all very well to call for these kind of worthy broad sweeping policies, but how will they be achieved - and how do you ensure that in the long run any policy won’t cause more harm than good? To my mind it’s sort of immature to expect “the government” to have all the answers and sort everything out because a group of people shout at them loudly enough. It’s like a toddler yelling at mummy and daddy and trusting them to have all the answers and solve all the problems. This seems incredibly simplistic and also bizarrely trusting of authority. Of course if you want to be taxed more in the name of “the environment” I’m sure a government will come along who will be only too happy to do this.

And as for “declaring a climate crisis” - how will that help? How are you defining “crisis”? What do you mean, what’s the goal, what are you trying to achieve, what’s the evidence that this kind of statement will help? It’s not sensible rhetoric, most people will be completely put off by this sort of statement. And when has anyone ever made good decisions in a panic?

Just to take one of your points about plastic packaging, yes it probably needs to be cut down but again this is a very complex problem. For example there are some very important questions to be asked about what it will be replaced by. Goods need to be packaged. Paper, cardboard and glass are all much heavier so harder (and more polluting) to transport. There is an argument that plastic bags are extremely efficient in terms of their embodied energy (the amount of energy it takes to manufacture and transport them) and they are reusable many times over. And people put rubbish in them, and they use less plastic than bin liners. And what about companies who produce plastic and employ thousands of people, what happens to them? And on and on.

I don’t know what the solution is but I really think it’s important to acknowledge that the government, whoever they are, are not going to solve these deeply complicated problems. Personally I think business and technological innovation will be where the answers lie, and the government’s main role should just be to let this happen.

MustardScreams glad to hear your empathy with cancer sufferers has recovered after your blithe statement.

I’d like the government to declare a climate crisis. And then put into place a realistic and achievable plan of drastically reducing carbon emissions, plastic waste and number of cars on the road within in the next 5 years.

What would that actually include in terms of targets though, and how would those targets be achieved?

What are you doing yourself to reduce your emissions? For instance, I generally cycle for all short journeys. I also litter pick my local area. It would be really useful if XR did something like organising a nationwide series of litter picks. I know I sound obsessed with litter, but if you personally experience (and I'm sure you will regale us with a tale of your having done so yourself) picking up the amount of plastic and metal waste that people throw out of their cars into the countryside, you would become annoyed with it as well.

Incidentally, waste recycling is a source of tremendous wealth for the owners of the companies which gain government and local government contracts. Its an incredibly profitable business to be involved in. People are calling it the new oil industry, it has that high profit margins.

Have we got any actual evidence of people dying from cancer or losing their homes because of the protests? Or are we just plucking imaginary scenarios out of thin air to whip up emotional backlash against a movement?

What an absolutely freaking vile thing to.say
Missing a chemo session isnt a small thing. They can't just slot you in for another one the next day ffs! Missing a session can really affect how the treatment works.

People losing one or 2 days pay could be the difference in paying rent or buying food next week. Who are you to tell them "it's in a good cause" when they are terrified of losing their home? How will that solve any climate crisis?

You really haven't a clue have you?

Htaf does making people go without medical treatment or unable to feed their families help any cause?

I joined this thread to try and be a voice for XR. It’s clear that XR has some serious PR work to do, although frankly I think that we’re always going to be upsetting someone. We don’t have time to discuss

Sorry I pressed post by mistake. I was going to say we don’t have time to discuss how bad or not climate change is going to be. XR is not about trying to bully or coerse people into doings things. We know that every person has a greater or lesser capacity to act and some people have lives which are already to full (like trying just to earn enough to survive on) to act. But those of us who do should be. As a nation, as a world we are sleepwalking towards a very unpleasant future. And it’s all the more tragic because we could be turning all our energy to making changes instead of fighting and arguing. This conversation has been very enlightening to me and I will read it again and reflect and act on it where I think it will help and make a positive difference. I really appreciate particularly the fact that so many people remain friendly even though they are in compete disagreement.

Sorry one last thing. There is a lot of admirable discussion here that doesn’t descend into mud-slinging. But there is a fair bit of the latter and frankly too much to be constructive I feel.

Totally agreeing with jilly there. Good post! Issues are much more complex than implied by the simplistic XR approach. They claim one of their "demands" is zero carbon by 2025?...How exactly, when all our scientists/ committee on climate change etc are saying it will be a huge push, with huge expense to reach net zero carbon by 2050? What is the point demanding something that isn't possible within our current society? That doesn't make it look as if they are coming at the "debate" in good faith, frankly. And I'm really not sure I want to put faith in climate decisions reached by a citizen's assembly. Turns out, when asked 'citizens" don't necessarily make the right decisions.

Plastic is an interesting one too. It's got tied up with the XR cause - yet it isn't particularly a "climate" issue at all (well, making anything creates emissions - but why plastic more than anything else?). In fact, making more things out of plastic could reduce emissions associated with transport as it is lighter, make cars more efficient, make parts for wind turbines and so on. Yes, plastic waste from single use plastics is awful, as pollution in general is awful - but it's nothing really to do with the "climate emergency", and can be avoided through proper waste management. It's the management that is the issue (littering/ poor management of recycling options etc), rather than plastic itself

The discussion has reminded me of a talk a couple of months back by the Environment Agency boss Its the climate emergency, stupid . These are the kind of people that XR claim are "doing nothing" as they are sponsored by DEFRA, and a public body, so basically the government. This sounds to me like exactly the approach we should be taking. Urgent and agenda-setting for good practice, yet pragmatic and realistic - and they have been moving towards this aim for years, and way before XR jumped on the bandwagon. There's an excellent quote at the end....

Humans caused this crisis. Humans can fix it. While humans can do stupid things, our defining characteristic, and the reason we’re all here, is that we’re smart. If putting our own existence at risk by altering the world’s climate was the stupidest thing we humans have ever done, we also have the capacity to get ourselves out of this mess. The right policies, the right innovation, the right attitude, the right lifestyle – all of these are in our gift. And that means that it is also in our gift to end the climate emergency and keep this world a great place to live - both for the humans, and for all the other forms of life that didn’t cause this crisis.

Seems quite optimistic to me - which would seem a much better approach to adopt than the "11 years til armageddon" one. If we're all going to die, why bother trying to solve the issues at all? Why should children study science or engineering or anything (art/ music/ sport) with the aim of making the world a better place, if we're fecked?

@MustardScreams
“Greenhouse gases (the cause of climate change) are well above why they were in the last climate cycle. That is manmade. If it was a natural cycle then the stratosphere (the highest part of the atmosphere) would be heating up in line with the rest of the atmosphere. But it is in fact cooling whilst the atmosphere just above the planet is heating. That is greenhouse gases in effect. ”

No. Greenhouse gasses are not (yet) well above what they were during the peak of the polar ice cap free part before the last Ice Age. Of course XR doesn’t go beyond a few thousand years so you cannot see the big picture.
Let me explain.
The CO2 ppm in the atmosphere is measured by ice core drilling at the polar ice caps and analysing the trapped air bubbles. They show CO2 ppm of between 180ppm and 400ppm. We are currently at 390ppm.

The world's most recent glacial period began about 110,000 years ago and ended around 12,500 years ago. The maximum extent of this glacial period was the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) and it occurred around 20,000 years ago. We are in the warming up phase of the inter-glacial period of a longer cooling off millions of years long cycle/gradual trend. For most of the inter-glacial periods, Earth has no polar ice caps. They melt. So we have no old ice to drill to look at the ppm of CO2 in the atmosphere beyond 110,000 years ago..during the warm part of the inter-glacial periods.

So really, the CO2 levels of 400ppm being the threshold where the ice caps melt is what people have seized on as a point of no return. That’s why the hysteria about net zero by 2025...they literally think we can stop the ice caps from melting. But we have had this much and much more CO2 in the atmosphere before. Yes the greenhouse effect is real, it is affecting Earth, but it is not something new and unique in either human history or life on Earths history. At the peak of the last inter-glacial period, the mean temperature was 3-5C warmer. We are headed that way no matter what we do. We were there before as cavemen.

@QualCheckBot
Good points in response to “And then put into place a realistic and achievable plan of drastically reducing carbon emissions, plastic waste and number of cars on the road within in the next 5 years.”

I would just like to reiterate that the government does have realistic and achievable plans for these things....but XR is protesting the goal dates and demanding unrealistic and unachievable deadlines.

Ok XR wrap your heads around this I live in a HA flat. I call it The Sweat Box. Its been fucking unbearable So ive been having two baths a day. There is no shower HA wont put them in. And im not being a sweaty mess No chance.

So whats the solution. Now before you answer please try to remember that the answer to this question will likely make your agenda pretty clear.

@morningbird1 you don’t aim to be popular when you’re shrieking at people to get out of a house because it’s on fire

Would you glue yourself to the fire engine?Only that has the same logic to it as glueing oneself to a modern, efficient electric train.

Never mind the stone-throwing from those who very much live in glass houses.

Emma Thompson for one, jetting halfway around the world to tell us to pollute less.

Robin Boardman-Pattinson for another, who is the prime example of many people's objections. Telling everyone that air travel 'should only be for emergencies' whilst living a jet set lifestyle, care of the bank of mum and dad.

Cathy Eastburn likewise seems to enjoy plenty of airborne jaunts.

Given the problem that middle class London has with cocaine at the moment, I wonder how many XR protestors indulge. They say that for every gram of the stuff, four square meters of rainforest are destroyed. How about cannabis use? I can't imagine that those artificially-heated lofts are terribly eco-friendly.

For the record, I haven't taken a short haul flight in five years, medium haul in eight, and long haul in fifteen. I drive a small, secondhand car on essential journeys only (taking the train when I can) and will be getting rid of it when my house purchase goes through and I move closer to work. I'm still wearing clothes I've had for ten years and which will probably last another ten. I repair clothes when necessary. My food is mostly locally sourced and not processed. When said house purchase goes through I will look at growing my own.

If everyone took little steps, we'd make a huge difference. It's a shame that many of those organising the protests don't practice as they preach.

Now, when will you be protesting outside the Brazilian embassy? And the Chinese one? What about the German one? The UK government has done more than most developed nations.

So in the parallel universe that is Mumsnet: plastic doesn’t cause climate change, but the middle class of London’s cocaine use does.

And you think XR are ridiculous?

Now, when will you be protesting outside the Brazilian embassy? And the Chinese one? What about the German one? The UK government has done more than most developed nations.

THIS!!!

This is again what bugs me about XR and, to be honest, Greta Thunberg. They choose nice soft targets. Let's have them park a boat in the centre of Beijing and see how the Chinese police deal with it. Funnily enough, they aren't so dedicated to their cause that they are willing to take that risk...

The UK and other developed nations are already busting a gut to curb emissions, a fact that XR conveniently ignore. It's much easier to cause havoc in a nice, friendly country as opposed to ones where people's livelihoods are entirely dependent on fossil fuels and where they don't take so kindly to be lectured at by a bunch of middle class hippies.

Morningbird1 we don’t have time to discuss how bad or not climate change is going to be.

I think XR are going to have a lot of clever PR to do if they expect the less gullible of us environmentally friendly folk to fall for such a basic lack of logic.

If there could be a move towards things that actually help, instead of woolly targets that are already underway...?

NotAnActualSheep Plastic is an interesting one too. It's got tied up with the XR cause - yet it isn't particularly a "climate" issue at all (well, making anything creates emissions - but why plastic more than anything else?). In fact, making more things out of plastic could reduce emissions associated with transport as it is lighter, make cars more efficient, make parts for wind turbines and so on. Yes, plastic waste from single use plastics is awful, as pollution in general is awful - but it's nothing really to do with the "climate emergency", and can be avoided through proper waste management. It's the management that is the issue (littering/ poor management of recycling options etc), rather than plastic itself

Agreed. Its the harm its doing when discarded to wildlife and to the environment. I know I keep going on about it, but the amount of plastic containers, sandwich wraps, plastic bottles, etc I have to pick up when out on the roadside picking up litter is disgusting. But if only more people would join me!!

Whenever I meet anyone who has XR tendencies, I do always suggest arranging a day to litter pick, and they go strangely quiet and either leave the room or change the subject. Perhaps I am becoming obsessed and need to lie down...

They are trying to make you see that all human, animal and plant life is currently at risk. Not just one person - 7 billion people and billions of animals.

Well they fail cos their way of delivering the message makes me go shut up and fuck off

I see a very casual attitude about how losing a days work or increased travel costs really affects vulnerable people here

completely agree
disgusting really and yet they want support for their cause

@Leighhalfpennysthigh There are millions of people like me who do these little things. We don't need to be screamed at, called childish by people who glue themselves to a road ffs, or told we don't care because we aren't going to ditch our cars, ruin our livelihoods or suddenly find the hundreds of pounds needed to buy "ethical" clothes out of hemp.

here here!!
someone who gets it, agree with your whole post

**it’s the ‘I’m alright jack’ attitude like your that get us into the mess in the first place. People only looking in their immediate vicinity and not being open-minded enough to see the bigger picture.

You know the Extinction Rebellion are doing for you? And everyone else on this planet? They want your government to acknowledge that we cannot go on like this without causing devastating destruction to the planet you live on. And because of their demonstrations they are starting to. Councils are declaring a climate emergency, which is huge. They’re starting to listen.

You can continue to bury your head in the sand as much as you want, but it’s happening, and it’s going to affect your children in their lifetime. If that doesn’t make you want to do something then I don’t know what will.**
You dont see the bigger picture, living an XR version of sustainable life is a lot of work, expensive and for the well off.
You dont get outrageous tactics, criminal activities, berating, patronizing, put downs and name calling dont get a message across. I dont listen to my 9 yr old having a tantrum, why would i listen to a bunch of adults doing the same?

I have the attitude of we need a house and food first. That people have more of a right to have the emergency vehicle they in get to the hospital.

they aint doing anything for me
In aus all they doing is getting stronger anti protest laws put in place by the aus government due TO THEIR TACTICS.
That will affect all and any peaceful protests should the government want it too

I think disliking the entire movement based on one small protest is unreasonable, yes. There is always going to be the problem that the correct message is distorted via people who claim to be ER but are just along for the ride. It sounds like an outpost without the backing of ER.
Extinction Rebellion are about raising awareness of the scientific concensus that we are in a climate emergency and actually doesn't have an official statement on political or practical implementation. They have 3 demands, that the government tell the truth on climate science, that they act now and become led by a citizen's assembly regarding climate change.

We do not have until 2050 to change. We need political upheaval and change now. These are terrifying times and our children will live a much harder life than we do.
To be put out that they are loud and a bit rude is almost laughable when looking at the issues they are rebelling about.

On another note, how many children you have is irrelevant. We need massive political change, personal change isn't going to make things better. Also, the birth rate is stagnating, the problem with population is actually at the other end; people are living longer so we have more generations alive at once. The population will stop growing soon. Assuming (hoping) that we aren't all wiped out, we really need to have children otherwise we will be in economic ruin as well as/instead of climatic. We need the kids to fund our future old age or else we'll have no hospitals, social care, transport...

If you can trudge through this it is terrifying and informative:

www.lifeworth.com/deepadaptation.pdf

@MustardScreams
www.theguardian.com/world/2008/nov/19/cocaine-rainforests-columbia-santos-calderon

It’s clear that XR has some serious PR work to do

I wouldn't bother, frankly. IMO they've done so much to discredit themselves through their ridiculous antics that the name's become toxic and the only ones listening now are those already convinced of their "rightness"

Maybe the answer would be to start a completely new movement … though even then they'd have to find a way to avoid the same thing happening again

I wonder if it would be more useful to turn the conversation towards solutions rather than arguing over the tactics? There is a clear consensus from the IPCC that we need to take fast and radical action to stop the climate from heating up too much and they have found this figure of (now) 11 years before they reckon it’s too late. Given that we’ve just spent the last three years arguing over Brexit I’m wondering what the people on here think about the solutions to this? If you were in power what would you do to try and stem the tide of global warming and pollution?

It really is a cult. These cut and pasted soundbites really do make a lot of people seem unhinged.

Go and do something useful for the environment instead of thinking your "movement" is the next messiah.

People that cant think for themselves are actually really dangerous for the environment.

I give up. This all feels too trollish on here.

@Morningbird1

Brexit is happening now. At this very moment. We have a PM who is hell bent on stopping parliament from debating it. Whether you are a leaver or a remainer, Brexit is the single most important and immediate change to our lives and will affect this country and the people in it for generations to come, not least the livelihoods and ability to earn a living of people now.

That's why we have been debating it for three years. It's a fucking mess. It's now.

We all know climate change is happening. We've known for years. Those of us who aren't swayed by loud voices and patronising comments have done our own research. Some of us are even trained researchers and understand how data can be manipulated to show a particular viewpoint. I don't need XR to hysterically screech at me. No one does in the UK. We are doing our best. As other posters have said why don't they target China? Or even the US. Meet Trump and try and reason with him. We have something more important and more immediate that is a threat to our country ams yes, we are going to concentrate on that.

As other posters have said why don't they target China?

Good luck with that - though it would be interesting to see how ER coped with the reaction which disruption could well meet over there

Interesting, too, to see the "trollish" comment because PPs have resisted bending the knee to the ER self-publicity - to say nothing of the usual extremists' assertion that the ill behaved aren't "real" members

Sadly the tactics have alienated so many who might once have listened, but they only have themselves to blame for that