...to think that children should look after elderly parents?

[wheresmymojo]

It's not a TAAT but inspired by another thread.

It seems to be a general trend that people feel like they shouldn't have any duty/obligation to care for their elderly parents anymore.

Partly I recognise that this is because societal trends make it harder to do elder care than it used to be - it's quite common to have two full time workers, be living quite far from your parents, still have DC to care for at the same time due to later births, etc.

I find it odd though that anyone wouldn't want to care for their elderly parents and find a way to make it happen.

So for example, we have just moved to live near to DH's parents who are in their 70s as while they don't need any help now, we know they will at some point in the next 10yrs.

My DM is very young (56!) so definitely doesn't need any help. I live 200 miles away but have already had the discussion that when she is elderly I'd like her to come and live with us.

I feel like I'm in the minority though these days?

I realise there are of course exceptions - any parental abuse and there will always be people who have very complex situations that mean it isn't possible (e.g. can't afford to move, already have children of their own with special needs, etc).

But I think it's sad that the average person either (a) thinks of it as an obligation/burden that they don't want to do or (b) thinks they don't have any obligation at all.

OP a lot of older people do not want to move in with their offspring while they can possibly remain in their own home! My own grandparents resolutely refused to give up their independence. They stayed in their own homes which was what they wanted, until such time as their care needs meant a nursing home was the only appropriate solution.

I think you have an idealised or perhaps outdated view of people in their 70s with relatively few major health issues needing to be welcomed in to live with their children, taken shopping, provided with all their meals and some very simple help with chores etc. All the older people I know in this level of health have preferred to stay in their own homes, choosing to buy ready meals etc & pay for a cleaner while continuing to engage in social activities independently with their spouse and peers.

I wonder if you a perhaps from a minority culture where this level of independence is less typical.

I'll add that my having my grandmother living with us when she had Alzheimers, was traumatic for me as a child. The day she walked through the living room starkers when I had friends round, was a significant moment.

It nearly destroyed my mum, who said we must never look after her when she was older. It wasn't an option though, anyway, when she had her massively disabling stroke.

So for example, we have just moved to live near to DH's parents who are in their 70s as while they don't need any help now, we know they will at some point in the next 10yrs.

Well, lucky you to have careers that are so mobile. Many of us don't.

I think your attitude was all very well when we lived as peasant agrarian societies without the need to move for work and so on, where all generations lived together in close proximity. But actually centring your life around your parents, as you seem to have done, would be awfully stifling for most people.

And then theres those of us whose parents wanted us out of the house as soon as we hit 16. No way would I be running around after them.

I think you'll have a hard enough time convincing some people they need to look after their own children, let alone elderly parents.

As suggested I've gone to the Elder Parents board but there's nothing there that I wouldn't expect, so to those who think I'm idealising elder care I don't think I am.

There are a lot of threads though where people mention some of the children 'aren't interested in caring' or 'don't want to get involved' or whatever. Which is basically what I'm talking about in my OP.

I'm assuming if there were specific reasons these children weren't getting involved the OPs would say so (e.g. my brother can't get more involved as he already has SILs elderly parents to care for / children with special needs / works six days a week / whatever)

What an extremely naive post.

You must be tremendously privileged in terms of finances, family relationships and health problems if you think it is as simple as that.

I know multiple people who have attempted to care for ageing family members, 2 of whom themselves went on to have nervous breakdowns, one went bankrupt, and one who's marriage dissolved as a result of having the elderly family member move in.

It very rarely a simple case of dear old mum moving in and sitting her in her wingback chair in the living room, needing the occasional help up to the toilet.

It's night of broken or no sleep, being on call for emergencies 24/7, having zero time for personal relationships or personal mental health, dealing with often disorientated and violent ill people, double incontinence, no time for quality time with your own children, constant manual labour, dealing with medical professionals and social services etc etc.

It is a very difficult task for even those with just 1 partner who works outside of the home, and with the finances and a large enough home to accommodate them. Which does not apply to a great deal of people these days.

Well, lucky you to have careers that are so mobile. Many of us don't.

I don't have a mobile career - we both commute 3 hours a day to work.

Agree with @theabc. I think there should be more pressure to get people to move.
MIL house was totally unsuitable but she wouldn’t move. When she finally seemed interested it was too late.
We looked at somewhere with wider doors, no stairs, walk in shower, lower kitchen cupboards, close parking and a shop very nearby.
All of this would have kept MIL more active and not housebound.

You don't really see elderly asian parents left in old peoples' homes....

Since you paid the culture card, I'm going to assume that you are taking the stance that Asian cultural care of their wider families is a positive thing. I apologise in advance if that's incorrect.

But I will say that it's hardly a culture that is universally enviable in that regard. The young Sikh woman who worked for me was appallingly pushy and opinionated about the care of her fiance's grandmother, who she was absolutely adamant should be forced out of his family home to be cared for by the family she had married into.

Even though they had room for her, she had lived there decades, even though they could well afford to care for her. She was adamant that the family she'd married into were responsible. The woman died shortly after the two families met about her care (that she was not invited to).

So I don't think at a general level you can call the Asian culture of family care all that great.

One issue I'm not sure anyone's mentioned is that elder care of parents supposes your parents are together and get on well! My parents divorced 25 years ago and would not agree to both move into my house. What I envisage happening is that I will care for the one who cared for me in my life, and the 'difficult' parent who hasn't stepped up will have carers/in a care home paid for by themselves. Families are not just geographically spread, many are not a nuclear family and if your divorced parents both need care at the same time it would be difficult or impossible to meet their needs in one house.

I helped care for my grandparents and I will not be doing it again. I don't have a great relationship with my parents anyway and my father was abusive. My mother and I have lived together in adulthood and it would not work at all, we are like chalk and cheese and argue constantly. Also, we live in a one bed flat so there would be nowhere to put her. MIL is lovely but is on the other side of the country and we couldn't afford to live near her.

Neither me or my husband could afford to give up work and carers allowance is a pittance. I have a chronic health condition too. I also won't do personal care. There isn't really an expectation in our family anyway as my mother didn't care for her mother because again she couldn't afford to drop her hours.

It is one thing to say people should care for family members but this generation isn't set up for it. Buying a home together gets complicated if the elderly person needs to go into residential care down the line. Some people aren't comfortable providing or receiving family help with personal care like toileting. Some elderly parents will not compromise at all on anything. People are often time poor too or may not have a supportive partner to pick up the slack at home. People often have young children later too.

A family I know was torn apart by having the woman's elderly mother move in. Everything had to be on her terms and she wanted constant attention. The children were upset, her husband was upset and my friend was torn in three, as well as working in her job at the same time. Her marriage ended over it and her children moved in with her ex to get away from grandma.

OP, may your eyes be opened by experience. It’s the only thing that will make you aware of what a complacent, judgemental arse you sound.

In our case, it's really about distance. MIL lives 3000 miles away, so we'll be little help to her when the time comes (although we'll do what we can and we'll visit and put care in place, if needed). My DPs live 100 miles away and are so far in good health in their 70s. Again, I will do what is needed when the time comes, but would they want to live with me and would I want them living here? No, because it wouldn't suit any of us. They will want to stay where their life and friends are. I can't move up there, because of DH's job, which is in London. I'll do what I can and what is necessary to make sure they are well cared for, if they need care (not everyone does, you know!)

My parents are also separated so I also agree with nearlyalmost50. How does it work when your parents aren't together and hate each other?

OP reminds me of the perfect (childless) parent.

Unless you have some very real experience, you really don't know what you can or would do.

I helped my mother do my father's share of caring for his mother with alzheimers. This meant bathing her, toileting her, helping her dress, finding in house carers, filling in the gaps when the only other sibling that wasn't bat shit useless jetted off yet again.

That damned near cost their marriage. It certainly wasn't very easy on me, as the teenager, and it was pretty damned horrible for my mother, who incidentally was dealing with her father, who was dying, my father's great aunt, and also working full time, plus supporting her older daughter who was pregnant, with a toddler, having left an abusive marriage.

If Granny had moved in with us, I can guarantee Mum and I would have moved out (separately) within 48 hours!

My mother lives a 40 hour flight away. I ring her every two days, and check in. If she gets badly ill where she needs 24 hour care at home, for several months, I'll be flying home to do that, leaving DH to care for our kids (doing GCSE's).

My sister lives a half hour drive away, and she checks in on her regularly, and they make sure Mum's got firewood, etc. Mum is still, thankfully, very independent.

MIL lives with SIL, has for complicated financial reasons for many years, and was also very useful for child and dog care.

FIL - I don't give a flying fuck what happens to him. And DH, the last of his children not to completely cut him from their lives, is perilously close to joining me in that.

I don't have a mobile career - we both commute 3 hours a day to work

How are you going to provide 24/7 care to your elderly, ill parents when the time comes? OP you have no grasp on the reality of proving care for your elderly parents. You can't just stick them in a corner and tell them to stay there until you come home from work you know!

You must be tremendously privileged in terms of finances, family relationships and health problems

Erm...no.

I am privileged with family relationships in that I'm very close to my Mum and PILs are lovely. My Stepfather is an arsehole though but his own son is beyond useless so I will need to do the caring for him too if needed (possibly not as DM is 10 years younger than him).

My own father was an abusive psychopath so I didn't do any caring for him when he died recently - hence in my OP I've said excluding where there has been parental abuse.

We both work full time. We both commute 3 hours a day at the moment.

I have bipolar disorder so not particularly health privileged.

Obviously we are in a position where we have a spare room and I recognised in my OP that not everyone has this option.

I'm not talking about people who can't because they don't have a spare room or whatever. I'm talking about people who don't want to.

Good luck with caring on top of a three hour commute!

I agree with the poster who said you sound like a fuckwit OP.

HTH

Were there specific reasons the younger siblings didn't help?

My mum was retired. They aren't. The way they saw it, mum had the time to do it. They did some stuff and I guess they thought that was enough. But also, my grandma had a hand in it too. She leaned on mum a lot, saw everything as mums responsibility, she wouldn't hear of the younger ones taking time out of their busy days to take her shopping. She refused outside help or any attempt to get OT involved, refused to use a wheelchair etc.

It's not as simple as what the children decide, the elderly person has to be on board with it and grandma wasn't.

My mum moved 400 miles away when she retired, back to her home town but we'd left the area when I was a baby. It was partly financial, partly "longing for home". I'd just had DS2.

She had some serious health issues before she moved, she claimed she realised I wouldn't just be able to pop in. I did 2 or 3 crisis runs, brother was living in Switzerland and he did a couple of fly ins. (We had normal visits too)
Ultimately, I did have to get a police welfare check and she was found dead.

I've felt a lot of things since she died, but never that I should have moved.

My dad moved 300 miles away when DS1 was born and I've no intention of moving near him either.

DH's family has a few older & unwell that in-laws do a lot for, but not totally alone. But have the responsibility load for which MiL finds stressful.

Hell no!!! YABVU!

It’s such a selfish reason to have kids but sadly it’s a common reason why people have them!

I'm talking specifically about non-abusive families where there are no complex factors.

I would count the later stages of dementia as a complex factor - it's an illness that requires full time care. I'm talking more of general elder care.

That was absolutely not what you said in your first post, though, was it? Think harder next time and consider the complications before a million people on Mumsnet have to spell them slowly out to you.

I spent yesterday on the phone to my sister with us both in tears because we desperately want to help our parents more, but can't for a million reasons. It's a constant source of worry and stress to both of us. And then I log on here to be told if I really gave a shit I'd just 'make it work'. Sorry, but fuck off.

In all honesty, most people whose parents need care in old age are in their 50s and 60s and small children don’t come into the equation

Not always true. I am 47 and my father died 3 years ago and my son was 13 so very much school-age. Not a small child, but still very much dependent.

As more and more people have kids in their 40s, the older the grandparents are going to be, and the more likely it is that they will have complex care needs.

When people blithely talk of looking after elderly parents, what they really mean is running a few errands for them and maybe cooking and cleaning. 24 hour care or dealing with complex conditions like dementia or Parkinsons are a very different ball game. And when people talk of foreign attitudes they forget that in most countries the life expectancy is much lower and people die before they get to an age where they suffer from complex illnesses.

My dad had Parkinsons and died at 93. Had he died at 78, he would not have had Parkinsons. He spent six months in a care home.

MIL is 91 and has dementia. Had she died at 85, she would not have had dementia. She has home care.

FIL died at 80 of lung cancer, no dementia and was dead within weeks and no need for external care.

My granny was 96 when she died. She was "cared" for by her eldest daughter, who was a frail 68. In reality my cousin's in there 30s and 40 did the bulk of caring for both elderly ladies, plus there own families. It was a massive burden on them.