...to think that children should look after elderly parents?

[wheresmymojo]

It's not a TAAT but inspired by another thread.

It seems to be a general trend that people feel like they shouldn't have any duty/obligation to care for their elderly parents anymore.

Partly I recognise that this is because societal trends make it harder to do elder care than it used to be - it's quite common to have two full time workers, be living quite far from your parents, still have DC to care for at the same time due to later births, etc.

I find it odd though that anyone wouldn't want to care for their elderly parents and find a way to make it happen.

So for example, we have just moved to live near to DH's parents who are in their 70s as while they don't need any help now, we know they will at some point in the next 10yrs.

My DM is very young (56!) so definitely doesn't need any help. I live 200 miles away but have already had the discussion that when she is elderly I'd like her to come and live with us.

I feel like I'm in the minority though these days?

I realise there are of course exceptions - any parental abuse and there will always be people who have very complex situations that mean it isn't possible (e.g. can't afford to move, already have children of their own with special needs, etc).

But I think it's sad that the average person either (a) thinks of it as an obligation/burden that they don't want to do or (b) thinks they don't have any obligation at all.

Oh and they have already hinted about disinheriting me if I don't fall into line. Don't give a shit.

I travelled alot and one thing I noticed was how many other countries look after their family ,we have lost that . If we look after them then I have no expectation of care from my children but I have sorted everything out and hope they won't have to. What a shame that we raise them and then when we are old and lonely they don't include us. If our family don't care for us now who will? I looked after my dying grandma and mother many years ago and didn't think twice about it they were my family.

My heart goes out to all those posters on this thread who know what it is like: I hear you all.

Here is my perspective on why I won't (as opposed to can't) have my elderly parents living with me, ever. This is how it can affect the children in the house. My mother brought her mother, my nan, to live with us, with the best of intentions. I am not exaggerating when I say it ripped the family apart and we are still dealing with the ramifications twenty years later.

My older sister was 15. My mother was busy dealing with my nan, who had constant health problems even before the dementia (a 40 a day smoker). My older sister got in with a bad crowd, she left home at 16, my mum didn't have the time or space to see what was happening. That was ten lost years of drug abuse, drinking, abusive relationships as she searched for validation.

I withdrew: pretty much spent my teen years in my room with what I now realised was profound depression: mum didn't have the time or space to see what was happening. I still have issues around emotional involvement and emetophobia. I didn't have a meal with the family for eight years. I was 11 when she moved in.I will never forget the horror of lying in bed listening to my nan cough and retch all night. Or her threatening to hang herself when my older sister was rude to her. Or later, when the dementia kicked in, of her deliberately throwing shit around her room, screaming for my mum to lift her out of the bath (mum had no training, no support), then saying she always hated her. Of her deliberately throwing herself down the stairs. My brother has a lifelong anxiety disorder due to her which means he will probably never live alone. My dad took a job where he worked away pretty much all the time. It nearly destroyed their marriage and probably would have done if my nan hadn't finally died, eventually, on the floor of a psychiatric ward, because she was too far gone for any home to take her, and she would deliberately throw herself out of bed.

I remember my mum weeping and talking about putting a pillow over my nan's head. My mum would never hurt a fly. I don't blame her for anything: it was all done because of people like the OP who think everything is so fucking simple and oooh, I'll move in with my mum and it will be fine.

And that is why I will never, ever, ever, allow any of mine or DH's parents to live with me. I will never subject my children to that. Ever. Ever. And luckily our parents have that attitude as well. So, yes, I am one of those terrible people who could have my parents to live with me. But I won't. Ever. And fuck anyone who tries to guilt me into it, because I have seen and lived with what it can do. And I will have no compunction about telling them in all the gory, horrible details what it can do to a family.

I think it's worth bearing in mind that no-one knows what they or their loved ones will be like by the time they need support or care.

Dementia and other forms of brain damage can cause people to behave in unrecognisable ways with loss of inhibition, acting out sexually or violently, tantrums and toddler like rage...

Chronic pain can wear at the sunniest people and as some older people engage less in the wider world and they lose their friends through death or dementia then they rely very heavily on their family and become increasingly demanding of attention whether positive or negative. Some people poke at their relatives for attention with complaints, insults, demands and problems because they get a reaction but it drives people away

It's very hard being the sole prop and stay of someone's existance and a heck of a lot of responsibility.

I don't think you can ever judge someone in this context. You can never have the full picture of the complexity of anyone else's life

My relationship with my parents has been fundamentally damaged. The management of their lives is a chore that complete through duty but their constant needling and demands have destroyed any sense of family feeling.

I had a friend who had her own elderly mother sleep in her DD's room until she died. This was supposed to be temporary after her dad died, but lasted almost 3 years.
The mother was initially well enough, but refused to go home and wanted to be looked after even though she had no issues then.
All of her friends encouraged her to get her mother back home, or find a place for her.
The 14 year old girl found her grandmother dead in her room.
TBH, it's not something I'd want for my son, and one good reason to think very carefully about how to care for elderly parents.

I've put a very detailed and specific Advanced Directive into my records via my GP recently. I wondered if I would regret it; it's fairly hardcore. It says if I lose capacity at any point past the age of 62 (when my son is 25 and I reckon can shift for himself), then I want palliation, not cure. With no exceptions. And that includes the kind of capacity loss that is really temporary, such as a bang on the head or a urine infection. (That's complicated, because I probably would recover from anything like that at 62, and I'm asking them not to treat me, risking recovery in quite a bad state. Anyway).

My overriding thinking is that I don't want to see 80. And there are only limited opportunities to die, coming as I do from a very, very healthy and middle class family who impose fresh air and exercise, oats and fresh veg from an early age, plus in those days good quality public health interventions, regular condom use and all that. If an opportunity to die post 62 comes up, I must, must take it. And this thread confirms I've done the right thing for myself.

there seem to be a significant number of older people who's ACs are so pissed off that they refuse to do anything
what happens to them do they all just end up falling and dying where they fall?

That’a bit hardcore @TemporaryPermanent! I’m 66 and definitely not ready to go yet! My advance directive will say no treatment following a dementia diagnosis, no age will be specified. My parents were really well and active throughout their 80s, I’d hate to miss out on that if I were lucky enough to get there.

Vickitotnes1 - that's great! and I wanted to do that for my mum, but she won't let me! She was very very nasty to me when I suggested she came to live with me for a bit after a major operation. She has been a quite abusive parent all my life, but I still want to be there for her (largely because I was always told I would have to and should never ever let her go into a home. And I took that on and assumed I always would look after her, no question). But she won't allow it. To make matters worse, she moans to health care professionals and all her friends about what a bad daughter I am and how I don't help etc....

I am pleased you were able to look after your family members, but I hope you don't judge others that dont, as you really don't know everyone's personal circumstances (to her friends, my mum appears lovely, sweet, caring and like butter wouldnt melt, she was a nurse, so she's always had a good, caring image to the outside world. But behind closed doors she was really really hard to live with and v abusive..)

I don’t won’t expect my dd to be running around after me. She’s got her own life to lead. She never asked to be born.
However I looked after my dad and loved it. Therefore if she wanted to I wouldn’t stop her either. I don’t think it should be expected though

I feel it we will come to a point where it seems necessary for everyone to make some sort of advance directive so that there is a path to follow should they become incapacitated.

We’ve reached that point now. Everyone should have one.

Well it is very easy to say that. I'm 36 Dad is 73 and in advanced stages of vascular Dementia. In the early days he wanted to stay independent but he rapidly deteriorated so the best place was a good nursing home. He needs 24/7 care which with looking after my 2 children as well just would be too much let alone not having space for him. If anything it has kept his dignity as he absolutely would of been furious to have personal care done by me or my sister. In a dream world it's a a nice idea but in reality it is not. Everyone does the best they can do. We have had to deal with the situation it has been heartbreaking not what Dad planned for his retirement

My parents say they don't want me looking after them. But my dad has pre senile dementia. Things are fine at the moment, but as he deteriorates there is no way I could just leave my mum to deal with everything totally on her own. I am not talking about moving them in, but I don't understand how anyone with non abusive parents could just sit back and do nothing.

If you don’t do it for your parents, don’t expect it from your kids.

I don't. The most I'd like them to do is visit me now and again - because they want to, not because they feel obliged to - and help to choose me a nice nursing home if it becomes necessary. They have their own lives, the only ones they'll get, and I refuse to interfere with that like my own mother did.

@whosorrynow They end up receiving the minimum amount of care the state will pay for, or if they have money paying for it themselves.

Have been returning to this thread and read so many heartbreaking accounts of the realities involved in taking caring for elderly relatives - my heart goes out to you all x

I wanted to address a couple of points raised by a few people.

The first is in regard to in-laws; I cared for my MIL because neither she nor my DP could cope with him providing intimate care. Also, I think it was slightly easier to care for someone when I didn't have those memories of childhood and emotional attachment that my DP did. Much as I did have affection for her, i did not have the spectre of my inner child mourning the loss of my actual parent - she was a human in need and that I can cope with - had it been my Mum in that position I cannot guarantee such selflessness would be forthcoming. The trauma of the long slow living bereavement that is dementia cannot be underestimated, and my DP still feels guilt, shame and anger in rotation for not only the loss of his mother but also her loss of her life and independence. He has sobbed in my arms about the unfairness of it - that she could no longer enjoy her independence, no longer go out with friends, no longer take pleasure in the little things that used to mean so much. That is my own perspective on caring for ILs - just as step-parents embrace their new partners children (hopefully) ILs, if you have a reasonable relationship with them, also become "family".

As to those who do not have family to advocate for them, well, I have experience of that too in the form of Mr P, a gentleman in his mid 70s who started coming in to my shop and chatting to my MIL....... he has long term mental health issues and the onset of age related memory issues. he still visits every day pretty much. I actually started a thread on here some time ago because my attempts to get him some support were so frustrating. he had no GP, no dentist, couldn't budget and was making decisions that pointed to him being potentially very vulnerable. It took me nearly a year and being told by Adult SS that i should mind my own business before I did secure him a SW and a Community mental health Nurse, after Age UK also helped because they felt him too unpredictable to assist. Trouble is, what he really needs is someone to check up on him once in a while, help him keep on top of his money and admin and maybe provide a bit of company - i do what i can, but I am also trying to run a business. When Mr P doesn't engage with the support offered they have to close his case, and a few weeks later I have to contact them again and explain yet again that I am not willing to get involved in his financial affairs etc etc...... Fortunately he is now "in the system" and worst comes to the worst, the police will carry out welfare checks. Touch wood he is puttering on reasonably well at the moment. One would hope that the community steps up for people like Mr P, but it is very difficult - for example if he has a problem the conversation might go like this:

"Ah - Mrs OQ - I've had this letter from the council - you know it came to where I live - the bins aren't being emptied and I think the man from two doors down is being a bit strange - there was a van outside the other day with (Company name) on it - they're from (random town) aren't they? i went there once with my father - it was a Ford Escort and they make toilet cisterns don't they - the government used to give grants for those didn't they......."

All harmless, but very hard to try and get to the root of a problem and offer practical help....... but I can't bring myself not to help where possible - call me a mug - although I have learned to set some fairly clear boundaries now especially when he needs to borrow money......

believe me, I am not in any way trying to claim any saintliness or superiority here, I just deal with what life sees fit to throw at me to the best of my ability. I often come up lacking and am sometimes alot less love and light than I think I should be...... the urge to run screaming from the building after a looping 45 minute conversation with Mr P is sometimes overwhelming.....

Our social care system is broken and carers of all stripes undervalued hugely. Sadly I think things will get alot worse before they get better, if indeed they ever do.

It would be interesting to find out if those saying they would not look after parents have in fact had babysitting or childminding services from those same parents.
It is very hard being a carer but that does not mean you have to stick your elderly relatives in a Home if they so much as sneeze.
I don't think anyone should expect any help from parents if they are not prepared to help their parents.

That’a bit hardcore @TemporaryPermanent**

I agree. I can see myself doing something like that from about the age of 80. In my family nobody has suffered from dementia until their mid 80s onwards, so if I can contrive to die between 80 and 85 I will hopefully be ok.

A 79 year old died last weekend running at Northwich parkrun. Of course it was sad for his family and friends and very sudden which is very hard to take for loved ones. But if you can't slip away peacefully in your sleep, that would be the next best way to go for me.

The issue isn't when you get to nursing home stage. Few people in the UK provide that kind of care to a family member that is not a partner or adult child. The issue is when you are living at home, can manage to get up, dress yourself, feed yourself, but struggle with anything at all unexpected. That could be buying new clothes, dealing with letters, dealing with repairs to the house. That is the kind of care family often provide and is almost impossible to pay for for a small amount of hours.. Then as things get worse you end up doing the weekly washing. Then getting a bit of shopping in. Then cooking a few meals for them.

Both my parents are dead and there is absolutely no way I could have sleepless nights looking after a terminally ill parent, look after my children and do my (stressful and demanding) job. Those circumstances are extremely emotionally draining so, even if it were physically possible, it would have killed me. Agree with PPs that you sound sanctimonious and like a person with no children judging parents.

If you don’t do it for your parents, don’t expect it from your kids
we could rephrase that to:
if you won't let your parents destroy you then don't expect your kids to want to be destroyed by you

It isn't about destroying you. But are you saying you won't help them at all as they get older?

It is very hard being a carer but that does not mean you have to stick your elderly relatives in a Home if they so much as sneeze.

FFS the bouquets no one has said that. Everyone has said why they couldn't or wouldn't and none of them have been for fickle reasons. RTFT

are you saying you won't help them at all as they get older
they were a pair of bastards to me, I dont feel inclined to go much out of my way.
I'd do anything to help my children, I'd take a very big hit for them, but I'm not prepared to take any kind of a hit for those two, they've done enough damage.