...to think that children should look after elderly parents?

[wheresmymojo]

It's not a TAAT but inspired by another thread.

It seems to be a general trend that people feel like they shouldn't have any duty/obligation to care for their elderly parents anymore.

Partly I recognise that this is because societal trends make it harder to do elder care than it used to be - it's quite common to have two full time workers, be living quite far from your parents, still have DC to care for at the same time due to later births, etc.

I find it odd though that anyone wouldn't want to care for their elderly parents and find a way to make it happen.

So for example, we have just moved to live near to DH's parents who are in their 70s as while they don't need any help now, we know they will at some point in the next 10yrs.

My DM is very young (56!) so definitely doesn't need any help. I live 200 miles away but have already had the discussion that when she is elderly I'd like her to come and live with us.

I feel like I'm in the minority though these days?

I realise there are of course exceptions - any parental abuse and there will always be people who have very complex situations that mean it isn't possible (e.g. can't afford to move, already have children of their own with special needs, etc).

But I think it's sad that the average person either (a) thinks of it as an obligation/burden that they don't want to do or (b) thinks they don't have any obligation at all.

I lived hundred of miles away then parents were in their 70s. Came for a visit and was shocked to ser how they had deteriorated. I had an older sister and two older brothers , all living nearby. I managed to move after 5 months of house and job hunting. My siblings just viewed my parents as "getting old". They lived for another 5 and 9 years. Not all do want to care for parents.

I don’t actually recognise this picture of people who don’t want to care for their elders. I know many people who are caring for elderly parent(s) - it feels to me like the norm. Many of these people are approaching retirement age themselves.

That's me. I'm nearly 60 my mum is 80. She lives next door to us (me, wife + 3 kids). I've always wanted to live as part of an extended family. My parent moved a lot for work when I was a kid and we lost all but holidays and Christmas contact with the rest of our reletives. I was always jealous of school friends who knew where they came from and had family close by.

When my parents moved up and bought the house next to ours in the village I ended up living in I was as happy as hell. My dad died a few years back - looking after him as he sank deeper into alcohol and dementia was hard - but the kids love their gran.

She helps look after them - all are school age. We help her with whatever she finds hard to do. It's not perfect - what is? But it feels right.

It would appear op does not have kids. On another thread June 19 she states that she is nearly 37 and is thinking of TTC. Married 18 months and known her DH 3 years.

Everybody needs to make sure they provide for themselves to go into assisted living when the time comes

i can show you a thread full of MNers arguing against a rise in the minimum wage.

How on earth would the low paid afford to do this..............including the care workers who care for the elderly so that their relatives can continue to go out to work and pay into pensions/assisted living.

My mother left me to bring up my siblings, cooking cleaning and organising homework, uniform etc by the time I was ten. I’m not looking after her again.

In the same way that people are perfect parents until they have children, you are a perfect carer until you have to care

Sums up the thread perfectly!

"at the moment you just come across as naive, sanctimonious, judgemental and ill informed" totally agree with this.

Reminds me of the relatives (usually the ones not paying and also the ones least likely to have offered to do caring responsibilities) who would see residents I cared for 1-2 times a year and spend most of it bitching about how much residential care was "costing us" - meaning the dent in their assumed inheritance!

Re being fine with someone saying they don't want to be involved in care - that's a damn sight better than someone saying "yea of course anything that's needed" but who flakes out frequently and often at the last minute throwing EVERYBODY'S Careful planning out the window!

I think op is under the very much mistaken assumption that community carers are free! And easy to come by/arrange and always pleasant and accommodating people (most are but by no means all - same as any job they're not all saints)

And yes op's views on managing a doubly incontinent relative with just community carers taking on that unpleasant but necessary task is laughable! Those with a lot of experience in this area - can you imagine the sores?!

And I can assure you op in residential care they ARE Pretty much changed on demand! Sign of a poor home imo if that's not happening, means their staff ratios aren't up to scratch and they don't know their residents well enough if they don't get quite quickly switched on to when is the usual time residents and able to work with irregular incidents too.

Certainly within 20-30 mins at most. You tune into their needs and tend to plan your routine accordingly eg if resident 1 tends to need changing just after a mealtime while resident 2 it tends to be after they've taken a certain dose of meds an hour after mealtimes you get used to checking in on/expecting buzzed by resident 1 first and resident 2 second (actually you'd probably have a couple more in the gap but you get the idea), ideally you'd be pre-empting where possible to avoid soiling issues.

"No, it has been ten years of hard work." Which apparently wasn't done by you! I wonder what the hell your parents would make of your posts!!

"including having to get in the shower with her in swimsuits to keep her on her feet." This is such a bad idea PLEASE don't anyone reading copy this! Get the correct/appropriate equipment/aids to support less mobile loved ones in the bath/shower. If they cannot stand then they really should be seated, there are many types of equipment to deal with this. Far safer.

"He's going to be a SAHD." Hang on! Do you not even have DC yet?! So you've never actually cared for anyone long term or round the clock but yourself?!!! 🙄

But you clearly are intending to have DC - yet apparently no consideration of their needs and emotions in all this! And you're assuming what your dh is willing/able to do! Does he even know what your expectations of what he'll do are? Apparently he's going to be both a sahd AND a full time carer with precious little real support from op!

"She fell multiple times requiring whoever was closest to go at various times of the day and night."
Also indicates the care was inadequate and incorrect and frankly neglectful, things should never have got to this stage!

"So most likely once they needed more than we can do living a few doors down the road we would move into their home so that they can stay in it. They are already looking at converting a downstairs room to a bedroom so they don't have to go upstairs for anything." How many bedrooms? Where are your kids going to live? What if your pil conditions mean they could display inappropriate or distressing behaviour in front of the children? How are you and dh going to have enough time to give your children the time, attention and support THEY need - which btw does NOT vanish when they hit high school age, teens NEED support too, they also need to be able to live a normal life which includes things like being able to participate in and host sleepovers and dinner guests...

"I've already posted about my own parents experience of providing 10 years of care until this year so I have as much experience of it as you do." NO NO NO!

your PARENTS being carers (and somewhat unsafely from your own descriptions) does NOT equate to YOU having experience! Geez do you put on your cv their qualifications too?! Don't be ridiculous!

Flerkin said they stepped up, "we" got calls and described what THEY and their relatives did to care for the elderly person so they DO have more experience than you!

"She'd probably attempt to do it herself in spite of no training..." That whole post is spot on! Seen it SO MANY TIMES people like op who are more concerned with APPEARING to care rather than actually knowing what they're doing. I've seen the most horrific sores, pneumonia, infections, ulcers, bruises and other injuries incurred by "cared for" people because the people "caring" for them don't know what they're doing! Very often they would be much better off in residential care being taken care of by professionals.

"Maybe I just happen to know a few selfish people?" Maybe - what's FAR more likely is you don't know the full story! Very few people are open about having suffered parental abuse with those they know in real life I certainly am not! You may well also not be privy to exactly how ill and how much care a person needs - many people for reasons of that persons DIGNITY don't necessarily advertise that their beloved parent is incontinent or has become nasty/violent due to their illness, they want people to continue to think well of both the sick person and themselves as that persons family. You are SO ignorant and naive and presumptuous! And ARROGANT!

"But you always hear of situations where one sibling is running themselves ragged helping our elderly parents and the others (or some of them) just don't do anything." For starters you need to be aware of people's bias! I've known of many situations where this is what is CLAIMED to be the case, more often it's the case that "one sibling" loves being seen as a martyr, has repeatedly refused offers of help, won't even try to access professional help, won't accept that other siblings lives (young children, own health issues etc) limit the support they are able to offer and even get pissy when eg a sibling says "I can do X days/evenings but I can't do y day" and go "well don't bother then, I'll do it all!" - I've come across that attitude a LOT! Doesn't make them any better actually than anyone else, they think it makes them look better but often with people like this acting as carers THAT is when the person being cared for is more likely to come to harm! It's got nothing to do with providing actual care and everything to do with EGO!

"Put another way, someone wants to play the martyr and wont take any other options into account." What I said rather more succinctly put!

"I meant 'care' in the general sense." Nope not buying it! You're backtracking so furiously now I can see smoke coming off the tyres!

"Correct that I'm not doing any care yet" then frankly you are completely out of order criticising people who DO know what doing any level of care feels like for making decisions based on ACTUAL experience which YOU DO NOT HAVE!

Siblings that are "run ragged" often choose to be! And people that "just don't get involved in any of this stuff." Usually do so because they KNOW if they start getting involved at a certain level they will be expected to do more and more and they either can't or don't want to do that - and they are perfectly within their rights to make that decision!

It's both insulting and hilarious that you are pushing and pushing on this when it's clear from YOUR POSTS you don't really expect to be the one doing the actual caring for pil or even your own mother, certainly not any time soon!

"I disagree that this isn't feasible with a FT job. It means making sacrifices - yes. But it's feasible."
And yet you've been clear it is your dh you expect to make any such sacrifices saying you "can't" because you're the breadwinner - you don't have to be the breadwinner, if it's your mother that needs the care surely it's reasonable that it is YOU That sacrifices your earnings, career progression and pension contributions?

"Yes. It means the majority of a day at the weekend will be taken up doing these things" one day!! You're kidding yourself! And when is YOUR housework, household admin and shopping meant to be done?

"I'm talking about financially solvent people who have no reasons not to help their parents other than because it would impact their own life." AGAIN you don't KNOW people's detailed financial circumstances - DON'T try and claim otherwise you DON'T because people do not go around giving such detailed info to even close family most of the time! And as for it being unacceptable to do so "just" because it would impact their own life - that means extra STRESS among other things, why should people sacrifice their own health (mental and/or physical) to care for elderly relatives if it's not absolutely unavoidable? It's a valid choice - and not one you have had to make as yet!

You're spouting all your utter nonsense on this subject from a perspective of ZERO KNOWLEDGE! As far as I can tell you haven't even yet had the experience of long term sleep deprivation due to caring for another!

They don't need specialist 24/7 care - just general care. WHAT WOULD YOU KNOW?!

You have NO personal experience as a carer and are so VERY clearly not educated in the area!

Myself and others who HAVE done it for many years and have both the experience AND professional knowledge of what's involved have REPEATEDLY pointed out that there are very many reasons why professional care is preferable to inadequate care provided by even the most well intentioned of people who don't have the training, experience or knowledge to provide care.

We have SEEN the results of such situations.

"I don't get why someone who loves his parents so much will be so thoughtless when it comes to this one thing - denial?" I really DON'T THINK dh is the one in denial! You are being incredibly arrogant, thoughtless and selfish towards HIM actually. Maybe he is being honest about the limitations of his abilities and knows that his parents won't want him doing very personal, intimate care! I've known VERY few mothers that have felt comfortable with a SON doing such things as incontinence clean up and bathing, and very few sons comfortable with it! How many sons want to be inspecting under their mums boobs regularly and checking for and treating fungal infections? (Fairly common as we age). I'm wondering if you were hoping for more support from this thread to show your dh how unreasonable he was being and now you're pissed as that's not happened!

Does he even WANT to be a sahd?

"Yes, it may mean giving up whatever you would normally do for those two hours I realise that..." You are SO unrealistic! 2 hours MINIMUM, there's also travel time to and from, waiting for the delivery to arrive (I use Sainsburys who have a 1 hour delivery slot but many have 2 hour slots so you could well have almost 2 hours JUST waiting for the delivery to arrive! THEN there's the unpacking, dealing with any unsuitable substitutes, possibly dealing with a confused relative who keeps taking stuff out the fridge while you're trying to put shopping away, or who argues they didn't order X etc you're COMPLETELY unrealistic. I'm housebound and get my groceries delivered and I'm currently still compos mentis, it takes about 2 hours before the delivery slot starts for me to prepare then I'm sat waiting up to an hour for it to arrive, then it takes about 20 mins to move from doorstep to kitchen (without actually unpacking anything yet) and deal with any unsuitable subs or complaints/breakages, a good 90-120 mins to put away "properly" - that's about 6 hours! And I'm no way as frail or needing support as you're talking about! You're clueless!!

"but most people would have teenagers so no need to help with homework or do a bedtime routine."
More stunning arrogance and ignorance from you! teenagers need just as much support as younger children, just DIFFERENT support, they're dealing with the physical and mental changes with adolescence, bullying, friendship issues, peer pressure, first relationships, school pressure, exams, pressure relating to extra curricular activities... They need as much parenting time wise as younger children!

"I'm entitled to have an opinion about raising my own children and to express that opinion." And those of us with the ACTUAL EXPERIENCE of having done so/are doing it now are entitled to tell you that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about!

"I'm a management consultant but not sure why that would be relevant (hence why I haven't mentioned)." Oh come off it! Of course it is relevant that you have a job that has NO connection whatsoever to caring!

"Actually I have bipolar disorder and have been in a psychiatric hospital twice so that's a bit of an unfounded assumption" then you should have a better understanding and appreciation of why people want to protect and maintain their mental health by not taking on a role that would cause them too much stress!

"Carers won't do that stuff." AGAIN advertising your ignorance! It can be difficult to access and isn't as available as it should be, but yes, community carers DO do things like shopping and running other errands, eg posting mail etc they also visit as much for the social/mental health needs of their clients as practical needs, gardening services are provided by councils for those unable to care for their gardens themselves, cleaning services too - you so VERY CLEARLY have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA of what people's needs are and how the various services work, completely and utterly clueless.

37?! Wow! You really are old enough to know better! It's embarrassing how ignorant you are at your age actually.

In addition even if you have your first child next year that means IF Your mum stays relatively well until she is say 70, as she is 56 now that's in 14 years, your eldest will only be 13 and still very much needing parenting, you'll be 50 and likely starting to feel your age, possibly with a disability or more health issues of your own. I'm 47, have major mh issues and a physical disability, I'm knackered most of the time and actually my friends of a similar age WITHOUT Health issues tell me they're also knackered and struggling to cover just looking after their immediate family.

What if your bipolar flares again badly? What if you have a child with health issues (more likely as you're an older mum but can happen to anyone, my dd is 18 I was 28 when I had her she also has a disability that has resulted in many hospital stays and care required)? What if dh becomes sick or disabled?

DD chose a N Home. I visited several times a week by public transport - a 14 mile round trip, before going straight to work. I was pregnant with my fourth and exhausted. More recently, my DM spent several months in hospital, where I visited twice daily (no other visitors) and took in her clean nightwear etc, and eventually I had to give up my job. After no improvement, I was advised to find her a home as she needed 24hr professional care. Now in a wheelchair (unable to even stand up), having her in my home was impossible - she needed two carers (trained in manual handling, obv) and hoists etc. For the first few months I visited daily, her mind and speech unaffected, she was bored and miserable as her concentration was now so bad, she could no longer read or even play bingo with the other residents. She refused to go out (hated the wheelchair) so I felt helpless. Then my DH was hospitalised with heart problems and I had to cut down my visits in order to visit him (and now take HIS clean nightwear etc) while still trying to care for my four DC's. Something had to give - it was the housework, being able to do only the bare essentials. The DC's tried their best to help (often with v little success!). When she passed away (after five years), I was almost immediately diagnosed with several 'illnesses' the symptoms of some I'd ignored - I didn't have time to be ill! My DC's missed out on holidays, my marriage suffered. My house is in total disrepair and my DH can no longer help. As someone previously pointed out, age (& my health to some extent) means I can't get a job (if I could I'd be able to pay decorators and builders) and can't get benefits. I don't think I would still be here if I'd had to look after (my divorced) parents myself. Well done to anyone who does but I thank God for people like Frequency and Graphista and ALL the caring 'carers' out there.

SO many assumptions made by some of the posters on here.
This thread is had to read. Especially self righteous posts made by people who have never been a career for anyone yet are telling the world it is the correct and only decent thing to do...

It does seem to be a cultural thing. Other cultures treat their parents with a lot more respect and compassion.
What I’ve noticed in my lifetime anyway.

I am happy to support my parents but I have no intention of having them live with me, neither would they want to (we have already discussed it!) I've literally only just got my life back after the dc leaving home, am I expected now to swap that responsibility for looking after my parents? People my age seem to be a sandwich generation left with very little time just to actually take time for ourselves.

Other cultures treat their parents with a lot more respect and compassion.

And tend to treat daughters as useful workhorses rather than as people with lives to lead.

Indeed, @MrsBertBibby.

Man plans and God laughs. Often nearly elderly people say - oh no dear, I'll manage. Then they become frail, ill and frightened and they beg for more company and support than is humanly possible. They don't sleep solidly, therefore neither do you. Manipulating 10 stone of a person who is losing coordination is exhausting.

And tend to treat daughters as useful workhorses rather than as people with lives to lead.

That's quite a blanket statement.

Not every other culture that has more compassion and respect for parents is also sexist towards women.

In a lot of other cultures there is more compassion for elderly - fact.

So you’re going to have children and expect your dh to look after them while you work because he doesn’t earn enough. Then you are going to force your dh is going to look after his parents when the time comes.

Too right, @wheresmymojo get your minions to do all the work. 👍👍

You’ll not have to care for anyone during the week. Baby will be in bed. The in laws will of course be the sort of dream, easy to look after type. As will your baby.

Let’s just hope your dream lives up to reality and your physical and mental health holds after having a baby. You cannot imagine how tiring having a child and strenuous carrying and childbirth is on the body, especially when you’re older. As you are. But nope, it’ll all be fine.

My genuine advice? Don’t have children if you expect them to look after you in your dotage. We don’t ask to be born. Just as grandparents shouldn’t be expected to look after their gcs, adult children shouldn’t be expected to look after their parents.

I'd look after mine if it fitted with my current life but I wouldn't move for that or have them move in with us. Our relationships are not close. They don't help or support me and no-one in my family expects anyone to do anything for them. It's a sad reality and a reflection of the poor relationships but it is what it is.

I’m just really baffled as to why you uprooted yourself 200 miles away and gave yourself a 3 hour each way commute when you don’t need to at the moment. It’s difficult to see any reason other than to curry favour with the parents to ensure the inheritance. Bit off for you to be so judgmental of others when you appear to be so greedy.

Too right children should look after their elderly parents. It's vile that this is not the norm in this country.

Respect and compassion doesn't necessarily mean changing a persons incontinence pads or picking them up if they fall. I imagine most posters have respect and compassion for their parents. Actually doing whats best for them is a loving thing to do and often that means the difficult decision to get specialist care. Love respect and compassion is probably enough when an older person has full capacity but is slightly frail, but not neccessarily if (in a domestic home situation) they are likely to cause harm to themselves or others without appropriate round the clock care.

It depends on the personalities.
I would've willingly looked after my (nice) mum but she very suddenly died at 77 after being ill for around three days. Seventeen years later I lived hundreds of miles away when my dad (angry and argumentative) died after a month in hospital at 94. Sister took the brunt of caring (two brothers no longer spoke to him) and she had a nervous breakdown.
FIL (nice) died very suddenly at 76 in similar circumstances to mum.

MIL (moody and difficult) needed professional care as BIL and his wife said they weren't 'natural carers.' MIL and BIL didn't get on. My DH predeceased her. Her difficult nature became impossible with dementia. Even the most loving would have been under a great strain. Her death at 93 was a release for her and a relief for us.

It depends on the people concerned.

It does seem to be a cultural thing. Other cultures treat their parents with a lot more respect and compassion.
What I’ve noticed in my lifetime anyway"

That's quite a blanket statement. All the people on here describing how they struggle and suffer, but just about manage to ook after their parents, who I presume are mainly British, of whatever heritage, so why are 'other cultures' said to be treating their parents so much better?

Don't you think times have moved on for 'other cultures' too, and that women are likely to be busy working as much as men, so having less time to look after elderly relatives?

People in developed countries are living longer but with many and mounting care needs. I imagine this is a problem now for all 'cultures'.