...to think that children should look after elderly parents?

[wheresmymojo]

It's not a TAAT but inspired by another thread.

It seems to be a general trend that people feel like they shouldn't have any duty/obligation to care for their elderly parents anymore.

Partly I recognise that this is because societal trends make it harder to do elder care than it used to be - it's quite common to have two full time workers, be living quite far from your parents, still have DC to care for at the same time due to later births, etc.

I find it odd though that anyone wouldn't want to care for their elderly parents and find a way to make it happen.

So for example, we have just moved to live near to DH's parents who are in their 70s as while they don't need any help now, we know they will at some point in the next 10yrs.

My DM is very young (56!) so definitely doesn't need any help. I live 200 miles away but have already had the discussion that when she is elderly I'd like her to come and live with us.

I feel like I'm in the minority though these days?

I realise there are of course exceptions - any parental abuse and there will always be people who have very complex situations that mean it isn't possible (e.g. can't afford to move, already have children of their own with special needs, etc).

But I think it's sad that the average person either (a) thinks of it as an obligation/burden that they don't want to do or (b) thinks they don't have any obligation at all.

Actually I have bipolar disorder and have been in a psychiatric hospital twice so that's a bit of an unfounded assumption

Pot, kettle, black? All you’ve done is make “unfounded assumptions” and refuse to back down when people have pointed out that you’re wrong.

to be honest until you have been in the position of being a carer for a parent (or more than one at the same time!) you really can't imagine how it will pan out and all situations are different. It depends why they need care, what care they need and circumstances. I would have loved to have cared for my parents and inlaws until they died but I refuse to feel guilty for not being able to care for 3 people whilst working and raising two primary age children, for years! we aren't talking about a couple of months after a broken bone or operation we are talking about day and night care, emotional and physical. And there comes a point where actually sometimes they don't want their family to be the one changing them and washing them, they lose all their dignity. You want to be their daughter rather than their carer.

lovely in theory, difficult in practice.

I’m in my 40s with primary school aged children, as are most people I know. Our parents are in their 70s/80s as they also went to uni and didn’t start having children until after.
It’s not unusual.

Actually one of DHs brothers refused to really help his mother. I actually know where he was coming from, she had done the bare minimum for them and have no help once they hit adulthood or with GC. Stupidly though he did think ‘the council would do it’ and provide a 24 hour nurse!
I wasn’t bothered until there was the suggestion that I took a month of work and moved 250 miles to look after her ‘to do my bit’ and leave 2 children until 5 at home?

Actually I have bipolar disorder and have been in a psychiatric hospital twice so that's a bit of an unfounded assumption

And yet you don't think teenagers need their parents around much. What an interesting view

The biggest problem I seen, is that when the parents are still well don't come to live with their children. So when they need help, there is a big change in the relationship and people get shocked the amount of caring need their parents have. It is not just feeding and changing their clothes. It also involves sometimes convincing for hours to take one bite of food or medicen. The random anger and violence. Also they are always right and no they didn't put to much sugar in their tea, you did. Why would they make their tea with so much sugar?

There is so much more to it. I personally think it is very unrealistic to expect anyone to care for their parents without help and training. The parents themselves sometimes just hate one of the children and can't stand them. For example, my grandmother absolutely hate my mother since her dementia. She used to be her favourite, luckly my aunt she can withstand and hold herself. She loves my uncle. I'm the second person she trusts. My mother can't give her medicen as it is poisoned (it is not), but everyone else can. Mom would love to take care of her, but she wouldn't be able to without causing them both trauma. Luckily she stays with my auntie who has a spare bedroom. My uncle can't have her as he lives in a shared flat and he works fulltime. So what if the parents just hate you? Would you force yourself on them? Or hire carers they possibly can like, if they don't like these carers get other ones. A care home don't need to be all negative, some are fantastic and allow the elderly to form bonds with people similar to them. Give them warm healthy meals. Some are of course shit, so if the children can't take care of them then they should do their best to wait for a good space to become available. Yes, I heard there are long waiting lists for the good ones.

I'm probably a bit biased because I never had help with homework as a teenager and in the absence of any special needs would have the expectation that a teenager gets on with it themselves, otherwise they aren't really demonstrating what their level of capability is without being spoon fed. IMO this sets them up better by being independent.

Of course, not only do you feel entitled to tell others how easy it is combining working FT with caring for elderly parents despite never having done it, you've also mastered parenting teenagers before you've had DC

Ahh, one of those 24 year olds fresh out of university armed with an iPad and a flip chart paid to tell other people how to run their own businesses more effectively. Now you're transferring your skills so the rest of us can benefit from your wisdom. It's relevant, because given the hours that many management consultants work and the travelling they undertake, you should be one of the first to realise that if you leave for work at 7.30 each morning and don't get in until mid evening, there really is little time to take your MIL or FIL to the toilet, especially if they have been waiting several hours for you to come home.

What's wrong with being selfish, though? If you don't prioritise yourself occasionally, you're going to end up sick, run down, exhausted and unable to help anyone.

I don't care if people think I'm selfish. My priority is my own mental health because without that, everything crumbles. If my mental health spirals downwards, how am I supposed to look after myself, let alone anyone else?

I'm entitled to have an opinion about raising my own children and to express that opinion. do you actually have children op? Until you have and have tried to juggle caring for them, an elderly parent, working, being a partner and finding a tiny bit of time for yourself you should take you fucking judgy pants and fuck the fuck off

I'm not being goady. Why would I bother?

I'm surprised at the response to be honest. The earlier responses made sense as people thought I meant professional 24/7 dementia type care. Obviously it would be stupid to expect that everyone could do that or would want to.

But I'm surprised that so many think it's okay to be 'that sibling'. The one that leaves most of the parental care to the others because they've....got a job and teenagers (which most likely the other siblings have to).

If you aren't going to do shopping, gardening, daily visits, etc - what happens instead?

Carers won't do that stuff. If your parents don't want to go into a home and are not lacking in capacity you will just leave them to it?

I genuinely don't get that attitude...

I have 4 parents if you include step parents. Am
I meant to look after them all? I only have three bedrooms. Do I put one in the shed? My biological parents also hate each other. I hate one of my stepparents.

I also do not want to spend a chunk of my life caring for them so there's that. The trade off is that they will likely have to sell their houses to pay for care, but that is what assets are for frankly.

I think it’s a very complex area and very difficult to say unless you’ve experience of the challenges it can bring. Society has changed. Expectations have changed. People don’t just need a hot meal popping in and someone to fetch a newspaper any more.
I think most people want to care for their frail elderly parents but that care can take many forms and it’s about working out the best, sustainable option. It’s not all sweet old ladies smelling of violets and knitting in the corner.

Caring for a person who is physically strong but with quite advanced dementia, for instance might involve them becoming very violent. Most of the reported violence towards NHS staff isn’t from knife wielding gangsters - it’s people with dementia. Imagine that violence if you have children in your home. Imagine that person gets most agitated when they’ve been incontinent of faeces and smear it in their hair, under their nails and down the walls. Can you begin to imagine the amount of laundry? Then sleeplessness. Screaming the same phrases “Help, Help” all night long. What if because of the effect of their illness and the altered thought processes they made sexual advances towards your fifteen year old son or accused your husband of rapng them.

Sometimes a granny annexe is nice. Sometimes a care home is essential to keep everyone safe,
Sometimes granny might prefer supported living with a bridge club and outings to the local garden centre tea rooms. Granny might not want her family becoming her cater. She might prefer a professional relationship.
The stress and difficulties of coping with a high needs elderly person can break families apart. It’s not just care staff who end up abusing the elder because providing care is so difficult; it’s more freeing domestic settings.

It’s really not simple.

What if the parent you are trying to support doesn't want a cleaner / gardener / carer - they want you to do it because they feel uncomfortable with strangers in their home? You cannot force them to accept such help, even if you are offering to fund it yourself because they have autonomy and capacity until the don't, and getting that sorted can take a long time because unless they are residential under DOLS etc because local authorities are so stretched they don't want more people requiring essential home care until it's absolutely necessary.

In cases of dementia, personality changes without significant cognitive impairment can occur long before classic symptoms, so you may end up dealing with a parent who was previously co-operative and then becomes very difficult to deal with.

And you know what - my current "not wanting" to care for my parents boils down to alot of fear, but fear based on experience and knowledge, not just of their decline but of my own. There were points where I actually wondered if Alzheimers was catching I was that all over the place......

Exactly, @adaline

Ahh, one of those 24 year olds fresh out of university armed with an iPad and a flip chart paid to tell other people how to run their own businesses more effectively. Now you're transferring your skills so the rest of us can benefit from your wisdom. It's relevant, because given the hours that many management consultants work and the travelling they undertake, you should be one of the first to realise that if you leave for work at 7.30 each morning and don't get in until mid evening, there really is little time to take your MIL or FIL to the toilet, especially if they have been waiting several hours for you to come home.

Erm...no.

I'm 37, worked hard in my industry to good level and then became self employed because it pays more. I never worked as a management consultant for anyone else.

Plus this has nothing to do with the topic at hand so TBH if you're just trying to make weird little assumptions about who I am so you can make personal attacks that says more about you than me.

I don't travel for work apart from my commute.

I do leave at 8am and get home at 7.30pm so yes, I will have more of a challenge than most (except that DH is primary carer in our house anyway).

My stepfather is a company director and was making 3 visits per day to his DM. I personally think that was too much the other way but it shows that one visit is perfectly feasible between two people.

I'm an elderly parent. No way do I want my children wiping my bottom, washing my sheets every day and all the other tasks that may become necessary. OP you have not got a clue what Carers have to do. I expect my children to look out for my best interests, but not ruin their and their children's lives

This is the opposite to what I see - which is basically that people's own well-being is so much the top priority now that the idea of any kind of family duty is abhorrent to some people.

That having down time is more important than taking care of people you love. I think society has swung too far in the 'I only need to care about myself and my nuclear family' and do the bare minimum elsewhere.
I think you're being needlessly judgemental and come across as clueless .

I know many people of my parents age and older who retired in their 50s with comfortable pensions. They have/had all the time to care for their elderly parents. For many people in their 20s/30s, they are looking at working until 65/68/older once the inevitable reforms happen. Are you suggesting it's selfish of someone to prioritise a roof over their heads and their own pension contributions Vs giving up work to do full time care for their parents?

Equally, many of my friends parents and family friends have retired off to the coast or countryside in their late50s-60s. That's great when they're fit and able to lead an active retirement, but what happens at 75/80? Are you expecting their children to give up their jobs/career/uproot their children to move to popular retirement towns because that's where their parents are?

I think at best you are naive and clueless and at worst you're being quite judgemental and goady.

it's an inefficient use of resources/human power apart from anything else, elder care should be done by those with the right aptitude and training.
We shouldn't be expecting people to vacate roles for which they are suited to be 'broken' (because that does seem to be the end result in most cases) by the stress of propping up dependent elders

I don't get YOUR attitude OP no one is obligated simply due to familial relationships. Some of us have children and jobs and homes and pets. Maybe you should expand your horizons and realize your worldview is narrow

@MediocreOmens

...and if they refuse to go into a home?

Put aside the one you hate, totally understand that one and it's called karma.

But if the ones you love refuse to go into a home because they want to stay in their own home as long as possible...then what?

I don't get YOUR attitude OP no one is obligated simply due to familial relationships. Some of us have children and jobs and homes and pets. Maybe you should expand your horizons and realize your worldview is narrow

Well I'm assuming the vast majority of people have children, homes, jobs and pets.

Do you have siblings? Are you just going to leave it to them?

then what?

Then surely its up to them, as functioning adults, to make this happen without making their children's lives a mess?

I think you're writing this from an idyllic but ignorant perspective. You obviously have good relationships with your family members, many do not, even without there having been actual abuse.

I also couldn't relocate back to elderly family, leaving my own family behind, not to mention friendships, work commitments etc. I see some politcian twonk wants to raise retirement age to 78. We'll be working until we're dead if they had their way, most of us wouldn't have time to take on primary caring responsibilities beyond making sure the house is clean, shopping is done / food arranged etc.

I think you shouldn't judge.

wheresmymojo ...and if they refuse to go into a home? that is exactly what happened with my mum while terminally ill with cancer.

Careers went in for four visits a day. They hoisted her to take her to the toilet, wash and dress her. There is no way I could do that. It took two people each visit. Do you realise your attitude makes people feel shit for doing their best? I’m happy with what I did for my mum now but felt guilty for not being able to do more. I had a job to hold down as I have a mortgage to pay. Defaulting on my mortgage wouldn’t have helped anyone.

Coming along to agree with @OldQueen1969 (and to send hugs).

I am only in my 20's but am already having to help care for my DGM who has severe dementia. It's soul destroying. You can say it's just shopping, just appointments, just cooking. But it's not 'just' anything. It's a house where you never know what you will walk into. Some days she will be angry, hostile and cruel, others sobbing because she is confused and doesn't understand. She can change at a moments notice. You can't console, reason or make it better. We have watched her fade before our eyes to the point where she doesn't recognise people, forgets to eat and is generally scared of her own shadow.

Of course, I am not alone, I share it with my DM. Not an only child but her sister has learning difficulties. So guess what? We have to care for her too.

Someone has to be on call 24/7, and that is with paid carers. You can't go out for the day without arranging for someone else to be on hand to help and spend your time just waiting for the next crisis, the latest decline. It is the cruelest life. My DM is an angel but it is running her into the ground. It's the stress, constant worry and pressure that caused my otherwise very fit and healthy DM to have a stroke last year. In her 40's.

We love my DGM dearly but neither of us are prepared to have her live with us. It is not selfish, it is self preservation. It is preserving the fact that we have relationships, an identity outside of being a carer and our own mental health to keep afloat.