...to think that children should look after elderly parents?

[wheresmymojo]

It's not a TAAT but inspired by another thread.

It seems to be a general trend that people feel like they shouldn't have any duty/obligation to care for their elderly parents anymore.

Partly I recognise that this is because societal trends make it harder to do elder care than it used to be - it's quite common to have two full time workers, be living quite far from your parents, still have DC to care for at the same time due to later births, etc.

I find it odd though that anyone wouldn't want to care for their elderly parents and find a way to make it happen.

So for example, we have just moved to live near to DH's parents who are in their 70s as while they don't need any help now, we know they will at some point in the next 10yrs.

My DM is very young (56!) so definitely doesn't need any help. I live 200 miles away but have already had the discussion that when she is elderly I'd like her to come and live with us.

I feel like I'm in the minority though these days?

I realise there are of course exceptions - any parental abuse and there will always be people who have very complex situations that mean it isn't possible (e.g. can't afford to move, already have children of their own with special needs, etc).

But I think it's sad that the average person either (a) thinks of it as an obligation/burden that they don't want to do or (b) thinks they don't have any obligation at all.

I have two daughters. I don't want either of them to give up their lives or compromise their own children's to look after me.

But also my daughters are totally different from each other. I adore them both, but one of them I'd find really difficult to live with. She is the one who has the strongest feelings of obligation and doing the right thing, but though I love her dearly and value all that's wonderful about her (and she does me), she'd be impatient and stressy with me, and to be honest, I'd rather be cared for by people who've chosen a job to work with the elderly and infirm.

So yep, so far the parent hasn't had much say in your idealised world, OP.

Oh and both my Nana and the great uncle on other side became violent with the dementia. It is very very common symptom.

Nana once threw a punch at my uncle for stealing her things. He was doing the washing up. He was ok, but (not unreasonably given his youngest dc was still at primary at that stage,) he refused to have her overnight in his house, and told my parents if they needed a break again, he'd pay for her to go into a care home. They always declined because family should do care if they can.

"I believe a carer comes 3 or 4 times a day for this."

How is that any good to someone who is incontinent?

"I find it odd though that anyone wouldn't want to care for their elderly parents and find a way to make it happen. "

Maybe this is because you come from a position of real good fortune, in that you don't have parents who were abusive or undermining or violent?

When the day comes that men are expected by society to take their mother in law to the toilet I'll listen to you.

By 'people should look after their elderly parents' what you mean is 'women should look after their own elderly parents and their in laws too'.

No man is expected to cut his work hours or hobbies to care for the elderly. Yet again the unsung drudge work lands on women.

You haven't got a clue, your a complete

Someone who works in care can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe they get changed on demand in homes as between all of the residents the carers wouldn't have time to attend to all of the other needs.

It very much depends on when they buzz to say they need help changing and what their needs are. For example, where I work in an independent living facility, where residents have their own flat and carers are on site 24/7, if someone buzzed while the carers were sitting doing nothing, they'd be changed within minutes. If they buzzed during meds rounds, meds take precedent over everything but falls and medical emmergencies. They'd have to wait, possibly up to thirty minutes if they needed two carers to change them (if they need hoisting, rota-stand or changing in bed) and 10 minutes-ish if they're a one person call (able to stand independently with the help of mobility aids like walkers and grab rails).

They definitely wouldn't have to wait 3-4 hours until the next carer arrived. People unable to tell if they have soiled their incontinence pad have 6 calls a day to check them. Morning, mid morning, lunch, mid-afternoon, dinner and bed. If they're out and about socialising in the communal areas in their wheelchair and we notice they're a bit stinky we discreetly whisk them away, change them and bring them back. They generally end up having a catheter fitted after a few months of this as they develop open sores on their bottom due to urine burn.

I think I see the issue OP, your family's lived experience of elderly care being needed was someone who was getting doddery, struggling with moving and housework, until close to the end when they needed personal care for a limited time. You think that's what youd be signing up for, so are ok with it.

No, it has been ten years of hard work.

On her 90th birthday she broke her leg and hip and was in hospital for a while so daily visits. She then needed 24/7 care for 12 weeks afterwards so she moved in to my parents bedroom which was on the ground floor and they slept in the spare room.

My DM and DSF had to take extended leave to cover this period. This included worsening incontinence (multiple incidents on the furniture and bed before she gave in to wearing incontinence pads) and they did personal care including having to get in the shower with her in swimsuits to keep her on her feet.

After that has been a period of several years that started with reasonably light care - shopping, appointments, cleaning. This became more and more demanding as time progressed and she got dementia.

My DSF would go 3 times a day while working full time - before work to get her out of bed and make her breakfast. He would also make her lunch and put it in the fridge. Then after work to call in, make her dinner. Then before bed to put her into bed. He would give her a daily half strip wash. At the weekend they would give her a full bath as it required both of them to get her into and out of the bath even with the aids.

She fell multiple times requiring whoever was closest to go at various times of the day and night. There were cancelled holidays.

She also had all of the dementia impacts a PP mentioned as time went on - thought people were breaking in, etc. Luckily as she wasn't that mobile she didn't go for a wander.

It was the last six months that we convinced DSF to at least stop doing the personal care and use carers because he's 65 himself and working full time - all of the men in his family died quite young and we were concerned he would drive himself to a heart attack. So then carers came 3-4 times a day and DSF would go once a day.

TBH it would have been practically much easier if she had lived with them (but she was very horrible to DM for years so DM said no way, which is fair enough).

"Once incontinent we would use the money from the spare house being sold to have carers in X times per day for the personal care element"

People don't just go from being continent to incontinent. A relative of mine is technically continent but regularly doesn't make it to the loo ( and possibly doesn't care/ notice if they don't) so wets themselves several times a day and whatever they are sitting on and there is pee all over the floor. They refuse to wear a pad.

I won't ever look after mine.
I'm afraid I am as selfish now as they were when they neglected and emotionally abused me as a child.
I don't want my dc to look after me. I want them to enjoy their life.

When the day comes that men are expected by society to take their mother in law to the toilet I'll listen to you.

I agree that society as a whole places the expectation on women, but that's not what I personally mean.

My stepfather did the care for his mother including personal care. In my own situation DH would do the majority of the care for his parents as I'm the breadwinner by a long way so it would be DH that would reduce his hours and then stay at home. He's going to be a SAHD.

And this has been going on for several years.

I think my parents worst nightmare would be to move in with one of us. Also it would be extremely difficult for us to move close to in laws. There are no jobs there and it would be a massive lifestyle change for our (non-existent) kids and would take away mass e opportunities. Also it would be quite unfair to make in laws move to us and make the change. Also both set of parents are from completely different places so we couldn't really move to both.

In theory it is a nice thought. And I lost certnaly will help as much as I can on the future. But taking care might not be possible and my dad would absolutely hate it if he was the cause of any of us changing our lives for him

My DGPs probably need some care. My DM cannot give up work and has a disabled husband. My DU is not expected to help as he's a man. My grandparents home isn't big enough for my parents to move into and my grandparents won't pay for an extension on either house. Nor into a nursing home as they don't want to leave their home. They seem to expect my mum to quit her job and leave my dad to look after them instead? What are my parents meant to do?

A lot of the problem is to do with people having to work longer. You can't expect women to lose their jobs/careers to do care. Carers allowance is a pittance and what do they do once the parents have died, they can't get another job due to their age and can't claim benefits?

Personally I'm hoping I'll be able to head off to Dignitas.

I can see where you are coming from after reading too many threads on here where people seem to think that the, usually, 18 years minimum their parents spent caring for them doesnt rate a second thought if the parent then refuses to spend the rest of their life also raising their children's children for them. Mumsnet frequently seems to have been taken over by spoilt and selfish teenagers.

However I also know what it is like to have elderly relatives needing a great deal of care. Children should repay the years of their upbringing by seeing that their elderly relatives are cared for, that does not necessarily mean doing the care yourself. It will often be better for all concerned if that care is done by those trained to do so.

I find it odd that any elderly parent would want to be cared for by their child. That's the absolute last thing I would want for my children. They will be under strict instructions to put me in a home.

My mother absolutely did get help with toileting on demand in her home. Whilst she might have to wait a few minutes if all the carers were busy she had a routine where she was taken to the toilet about 5-6 times in a 24 hour period and more if she needed it

The default was immediately on waking, just after lunch at about 2pm, Again around 4/5pm, again at around 7pm before the day shift changed . Then before bed at around 9pm, then again usually once in the night at least. This regime meant she almost never had accidents which happens with distressing regularity ( for her) when she had 4 visits a day at home.

I think there are different realities for everyone - I have parents that won't move and have decided they will die at home end of. There are 6 of us 2 a flight away, me 2.5 hrs away and others within the hour of them. We have families and differing jobs and commitments - some with urgent mental care jobs, others with high level industry roles and 3 with our own businesses and all that entails. Even with 6 of us we are finding it hard to cover. When one goes into hospital it takes 3 of us to cover the 24/7 in hospital due to dementia and also the stuff that needs doing at home. They want to be together and not separated but I am not sure how we can even do that. I can't up sticks and move due to child in critical educ years, plus in a house that needs work before we can move - at the moment I am being highly pressured by 2 of my sisters to do more - I just can't. I have a Husband a daughter and a dog plus a MIL that is 88 and also needs attention. There is not enough of me to go around without me becoming ill as well. Its a ridiculous expectation

So yep, so far the parent hasn't had much say in your idealised world, OP.

People keep making a lot of assumptions.

I've discussed in full with both sets of parents when they have brought it up.

PILs have said that they want to stay in their own home. They looked after MILs DM in that house. So most likely once they needed more than we can do living a few doors down the road we would move into their home so that they can stay in it. They are already looking at converting a downstairs room to a bedroom so they don't have to go upstairs for anything.

The other half of being a sandwich carer is that your children become distanced, because they aren’t your prime concern. They get left to manage by themselves, because you can’t be in two places at once. If you are lucky, they don’t resent it. If you are very lucky, they don’t need you at a time when your elderly parent needs you.
Carers round here are around £20+ an hour. More for overnight.

whoever played the culture card - one reason my parents moved to the UK was to get away from an appalling culture and to ensure their children never had to grow up in it - particularly awful for women.

they both feel very strongly that care should not be left to children - fine if they want to do it but not if they don't.

OP if you've spent some time on the EP board perhaps you can see how many hours I've spent in A&E the last few months with my apparently healthy mother, and my sister helping, and other friends helping.

if you want to do it - absolutely great. But don't call people selfish if they don't want to do it.

I notice you still haven't specified what you think "care" means. cancer debilitated my father, who was only in his 70s, to the point of using a walking frame in the house etc.

when we spoke with carers, many agencies said, understandably, that they didn't help patients with stairs because the risk of injury to the carer was too high, which was fine, of course, we perfectly understood that.

You sound so idiotic - like you've never really met anyone with any health issue, in fact.

Each to their own, op.

I personally don't understand why anyone would invite an elderly relative to live with them when they still have children living there. It's unfair on the dc in my honest opinion.

I know someone who resents their parents for letting their elderly relative live with them, who could easily afford a home. It was hugely restrictive on their lives. No friends allowed over in the end and no one wanted to go over in case the relative had one of their scary outbursts. Constantly having the same conversations at the dinner table with the relative telling them about their day at work (they'd been at home all day). It's draining on the children in the household, which I think people don't consider.

Do you have dc op?

I find it odd though that anyone wouldn't want to care for their elderly parents and find a way to make it happen.

I find it odd (not to mention extremely judgemental) that you assume people can just "make it happen". Not everyone's circumstances are the same. Not everyone has the same choices.

People of my generation are likely to find themselves working into their seventies, do you really think it's that easy to "find a way" to combine FT employment with caring for elderly parents? Not everyone is in a position to put their life on hold to provide care, no matter how much they might want to. What if your parent requires 24/7 care but you have no space for them in your home? How do you make an extra bedroom happen? Not everyone can afford to extend or move to a bigger house. Children are living at home longer now due to struggling to get on the property ladder, should people be expected to throw their adult DC out of the house to make room for elderly relatives?

It's great that you've been able to relocate in order to be closer to elderly parents, OP but not everyone is able to do so and it doesn't mean they care about their parents any less than you do. Moving costs a lot of money for a start and people may have very good reasons for being reluctant to leave their jobs or uproot their children from their school. What about couples who each have elderly parents living in different parts of the country so moving closer to one set of elderly parents would mean being further away from the other? How do you suggest they "make it happen"?

But sure, carry on assuming that people who don't provide care for elderly relatives simply "don't want to" even though you know nothing about their lives. Whatever makes you feel good about yourself.

OP you have no clue. Non at all.

For a start, selling your house and giving the money away so you dont have to pay for care, could be classed as deprivation of funds. That causes all sorts of problems.

You clearly have no idea how hard it is to care for the elderly. Especially when dementia in involved.

My mum has 5 sisters. All split care for their dad as he got older and then developed dementia. They were all 60 plus. It was killing them so some of the grandchildren stepped in. Even though he was an awful man before he got I'll, I stepped up because it was killing my mim and my aunties. No one had room for him to move in. The auntie whose house was big enough still had adult children at home.

Besides which as he got older and the dementia got worse no one could have coped with having him. A care home wouldnt voluntarily take him.

We had regular calls at midnight, having to go round at midnight, my cousin finding hom going to the supermarket on his mobility scooter in just his dressing gown, a neighbout finding him in the garden on boxing day having fallen over after going out at night. Him trying to take medication, trying to cook and causing issues. Its next to impossible to get someone withdrawing dementia sectioned or to get the NHS involved to arrange care. No one in my family, could afford to voluntarily put him in care and his house was a council house.

There were phone calls from him everyday where he abused one of us. The bank got fed up of him calling saying they were stealing, even the phone line that was set up for ex navy personnel couldnt help him anymore, so he phoned them and abused them.

There were 6 of us caring for him and it was constant issues. I had 2 young kids and worked full time. My mum and all my aunties worked full time.

Until you have done it, dont presume to think you know or that it will be just 'fine' because all those things you put in place, fall apart the schedules, the visits, the putting them to ebd, helping them to the toilet. He became violent with carers (people with dementia can be scarily strong) so they wouldnt come back

Finally, he terrified a neighbour by trying to get in her car, naked screaming that it was his charm she called the police. He was the sectioned. By being sectioned he was in hospital for a long while and the ln his care was covered by the NHS when he went to a home because he was sectioned under the mental health act.

He died less than a year later, after getting up at 3am, falling over and hitting his head so hard, he had a bleed on the brain and there was nothing the hospital could do because his body was so frail.

Caring for him nearly destroyed mums relationship with her sisters because everyone was always so stressed and this went for years and years.

My mum is approaching 70. I am a single parent who works full time. I had to move 30 mins away as I could not afford to live near her. Not everyone can.

I dont have room for her to live here. To have pulleys and lifting equipment if she needed it. She woildnt be comfortable here if she developed dementia. It's not familiar surroundings.

The impact it has on the kids of the carers, is massive as well. Yeah, you think it's not big deal cancelling a holiday. Try thinking that when your kids have looked forward to 4 holidays in a row and all been cancelled. As well as many day to day activities.

You have no clue.

As an aging parent myself, I would NEVER expect my adult children to take on the burden of my care. Why the hell should they - I didn't raise them with the expectation they would take care of me in my declining years. I looked after my elderly, difficult, demanding, disabled father for a few years until his death - and it was a huge mistake. I really couldn't provide the level of care AND continue to have any kind of life myself.

My children have their own lives. Why on earth should they be expected to either move closer to me, or have me move closer to them and do housework, shopping, personal care etc etc. What about their families? Their lives? Their employment?

I have told both of them not to even think about it, to save all the hand-wringing and guilt trips from people like you, who frankly have no idea of the reality of many people's lives.

If you don't work, have no other responsibilities, plenty of time, the energy and the emotional strength to do sheer drudgery day in day out (endless personal care, catheter bags, endless extra washing) then good for you.

I wouldn't dream of asking my children to make those sorts of sacrifices. I wouldn't be able to live with myself.