...to think that children should look after elderly parents?

[wheresmymojo]

It's not a TAAT but inspired by another thread.

It seems to be a general trend that people feel like they shouldn't have any duty/obligation to care for their elderly parents anymore.

Partly I recognise that this is because societal trends make it harder to do elder care than it used to be - it's quite common to have two full time workers, be living quite far from your parents, still have DC to care for at the same time due to later births, etc.

I find it odd though that anyone wouldn't want to care for their elderly parents and find a way to make it happen.

So for example, we have just moved to live near to DH's parents who are in their 70s as while they don't need any help now, we know they will at some point in the next 10yrs.

My DM is very young (56!) so definitely doesn't need any help. I live 200 miles away but have already had the discussion that when she is elderly I'd like her to come and live with us.

I feel like I'm in the minority though these days?

I realise there are of course exceptions - any parental abuse and there will always be people who have very complex situations that mean it isn't possible (e.g. can't afford to move, already have children of their own with special needs, etc).

But I think it's sad that the average person either (a) thinks of it as an obligation/burden that they don't want to do or (b) thinks they don't have any obligation at all.

YABU, not everyone has a wonderful childhood and decent adult relationship with their parents to feel that they want to look after them.

My own mother is in her early 70s and has PD, I have arranged a cleaner, gardener and carers. I live close by and help out a lot but don't want to be doing all the physical care as my mother is very manipulative and demanding.

Good luck with your elderly parents living with you, if I were you I'd start saving now for your future fuel bills, my mother had her heating on yesterday it was 24 degrees in the house.

My husbands gran has some cognitive impairment following her stroke and after I went up to assist he to the toilet every 3 hours, make her tea, get her settled to bed she phoned 5 relatives to say she had been left all alone and was neglected

I once made a gentleman his lunch. He sat and ate it while I did his cleaning. His family were just leaving as I arrived. When I was sitting on his sofa writing up the call in his daily visit book he turned to me and said, "everyone is too busy for me here. My family never visit. They're too busy and I only get meals when I go to the day center because you girls are too busy to come and help me."

He appeared to genuinely believe every word he spoke. I held his hand as he sobbed about his family and then made him a slice of jam on bread, since he'd forgotten about the lunch he just ate. He threw the jam and bread, plate and all at me and asked why I was trying to make him fat. Didn't I know he'd just had lunch

I won’t be looking after my mum I haven’t even spoken to her in 2 years, very unpleasant woman.

My mum came to live near us about 7 years ago. She was fine, just turned 82 years old. She could clean her own flat, take herself to appointments, cook for herself and get herself out and about (every day, come rain or shine).

Six months after the move to her little flat she had a heart attack. Cue 6 weeks of walking her around every day - one hour each day but she had to be accompanied. In the winter, so the walks had to be done during the day.

At the time I was looking to return to work, part time somewhere, as our DS had started school. So that was put on hold.

Mum was on warfarin so had to have blood tests to ensure her blood wasn't too thick or too thin as she had a stent put in the heart. The problem was they couldn't get the dosage right. So we'd have a month between appointments, then one appointment a week. One would be on a Monday, the next week we couldn't get an appointment until Thursday. So, again, my starting to find work was put on hold as you can't expect a new employer to give you time off for an appointment every week especially when you don't know what day each appointment would be on.

Move forward six months. Mum had a fall. With the aftermath of that, a stomach problem, a cyst on the leg and her warfarin I covered 27 appointments with her that year. 27 - some at short notice. I started my own business as I knew I was now in a care cycle and wouldn't be able to go 'out' to work whilst mum was still with us - she was getting worse/older, not better.

Four years ago she was diagnosed with dementia. She lived in her own home (an extra care facility where carers are on hand but they have their own flat). She started off well. Then forgot to eat. Then would put her food in the oven for her evening meal at 9.00am. We got meals on wheels. Carers came to help with the evening meals. We covered appointments, doing her washing and ironing, taking her out, general cleaning and doing her medication.

Mum would ring at 10pm to say her district nurse hadn't been - she forgot there were two 10 o'clocks during the day. Even though it was dark she still assumed it was day time.

She had a number of falls - I was called out at 2 or 3am on numerous occasions.

Finally she went into hospital and the decision was she couldn't carry on that way. I could have wept with relief that finally someone actually acknowledged what we and the care team had been saying. She needed extra help and a secure environment. She'd tried to go out at 4.30am one morning and luckily the manager of her flats saw her, put her to bed and called me. I've had the police call me out as she'd rang them to say there was someone in her flat - there was no one. No one on CCTV, no alarms for other entrances to her flat.

We cared for her in her own home for five and a half years and it almost ended my relationship with my siblings. Not because they didn't help. They did. But the constant calls from mum, organising carers, appointments, emergency calls to hospitals where you wait 12 hours for her to get a bed - whilst you and your DH try to arrange for someone to take your DS to school in the morning otherwise DH (whose self employed) would miss yet another day's work and have to put his customers off, were just too much.

Ill health does not just happen. It sneaks up. It is monotonous and it is merciless. It takes your own health (I was on medication myself by the time the hospital found a care home for mum), it takes your future (I've just started looking for paid work outside the home now as I know she is now safe), and it affects your family. My DS has had to run down the road with me after yet another call to say mum's on the floor, ambulance on the way. He's been shoved into friend's mums arms whilst I make yet another trip to the hospital then been taken back home when DH has arrived home after a frantic two hour drive to collect him.

Don't criticise others until you've walked in their shoes. Caring for an elderly relative can be fine - whilst they just need a weekly shop done but wait until the weekly GP appointments start or the beginnings of incontinence - when you don't know if this is the way it's 'going to be from now on' or just a blip so you can't plan anything.

So if they needed changing when a carer wasn't there?

I believe a carer comes 3 or 4 times a day for this.

Someone who works in care can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe they get changed on demand in homes as between all of the residents the carers wouldn't have time to attend to all of the other needs.

"it would be completely weird to me to move to a country away from my parents and siblings."

But what about your siblings-would they move?

How nearby should everyone stay?

Or are some absolved from caring?

@jennymanara

I think what you say is true but I suppose I'm just bitter! I certainly was on Friday when I heard Ken Clark talk on the radio about being the next PM . I mean, good luck to him but I was upset to think that my relative =many years younger-wouldn't be put in charge of paper clips.

Just feeling sorry for myself and wondering why one 80 year old is having a high profile life in complicated politics and another less elderly person has dementia and why it is my luck to be involved with the latter.

Doesn't make me feel fabulous about myself and even less so when I read the OP.

As someone who has worked in elderly care professionally AND cared for elderly relatives it seems a very arrogant and ill informed post you've made considering from what I can tell you have as yet ZERO experience of ACTUALLY caring for a very sick, ageing person.

Caring for sick, ageing people is INCREDIBLY difficult, demanding and even dangerous if proper support isn't in place - not just for the carers but for the person being cared for.

Not everyone has the ability, aptitude or demeanour suitable for such a role.

You mention parental abuse which is most definitely a factor. I am the now adult child of an extremely abusive parent and the other parent very much enabled the situation so no I won't be caring for them.

Many of the residents I cared for as a professional in elder care were there because they had more than burnt bridges! They'd nuked their relationships! We even had some where we had to put protocols in place in order to STILL protect even pension age adult children from being abused by their parents, and I don't just mean verbally/emotionally (though that was common) but physically! Certain residents were simply not safe to be left alone with relatives as they could and would hit them!

Some were even never dealt with by less than 2 workers at a time for the workers protection! Not just physically but from malicious accusations etc It's not talked about but it is not as rare as people would like to think.

But there's also elder abuse, which without ever wishing to excuse does sometimes occur as a result of carers feeling or being unsupported, unappreciated and frankly knackered! Exhausted people act irrationally and caring for someone who perhaps is active 24/7 (as my gran was) IS completely exhausting, we did it as a family with a rota nobody doing more than 2 days in a row because being "on alert" for her wandering into the road or turning the cooker on and putting a newspaper on the hob or falling on the way to the loo is most definitely knackering! We had 2 trained nurses and a hca within our family "team" and even so near the end she was cared for in a hospice type place as we were simply not in a position to provide the care needed.

Plus there's the emotional toll. My gran had cared for my cousins and I as children we all adored her. To see a person you love disintegrate before your eyes. By the minute seemingly near the end, is a heartbreak unlike anything else you will ever experience.

People can only deal with so much

There's also some who just don't feel at all confident caring for someone with complex medical needs (which is very common with the elderly as systems start to break down). You could easily have someone who has diabetes, a heart condition, thyroid disease and dementia. Are on multiple medications that have to be carefully monitored possibly including things like blood glucose tests, regular bp checks etc that have to be taken with food/on empty stomach/only under certain conditions. Eg my mum cares for my dad and he's on over 100 meds a day, some are tablets, some liquid, some inhalants, some injectables. Several are highly toxic and very dangerous even if one extra dose in overdose. Some of the liquid ones are dangerous to mum if accidentally ingested if eg spilled slightly into a cup or plate of hers.

Quite honestly if you've never done it you have NO RIGHT to comment on those who have and who for reasons of safety (for them or the person being cared for) or for their own sanity have chosen alternative options.

Some have regular fits or arrhythmias etc that really are best managed by professionals.

It can be a HUGE undertaking that isn't always in the best interests of the person being cared for.

There's also the sick persons own wishes to be taken into account, their pride and dignity is still important. Both my grans were cared for by family near the end, my uncles would have happily undertaken personal care for them but neither gran wanted that and were very clear on the matter. Some elderly people don't like any family members seeing them in a weakened deteriorating state.

As I say, to make this post when you clearly have no real experience of the matter or in dealing with such situations is incredibly arrogant.

The one element you have recognised is potential carers working full time, possibly still raising school aged children when their parents/PIL start to deteriorate.

As I'm sure @helenadove would very eloquently put, given this govts determined effort to have everyone working full time well into their 70's if at all possible means people simply won't be available to act as carers.

There's also the distress of witnessing disturbing, inappropriate even violent behaviour of sick grandparents on children.

Eg Having a grandad with dementia who keeps stripping or making lewd comments around children would be a terrible idea.

Many adult children don't even feel confident they could do the "basics" right, some do think they can and do it poorly because they don't have the understanding, training or altitude - this can lead to anything from bedsores and ulcers to lung issues because they're letting sick people lay flat all day or even dislocated joints from improper movement when lifting.

It's VERY rare there are no "complex factors" it's not JUST dementia that results in odd, inappropriate or aggressive behaviour. Many of the conditions that occur commonly in the elderly can cause behavioural changes. The body is breaking down that includes the brain.

wheresmymojo
Were there specific reasons the younger siblings didn't help?

If not, then I think they're the people I'm talking about...

Its interesting that it keeps coming back to this for you, by the sounds of it you will be judging those that don't conform to your rigorous standards on this.

I would be in your bad books as I moved away from my family, but you would love my elder sibling who tells of the many hours spent looking after our parents.

However the truth is that they do fuck all but virtue signal and the real work is done by my younger sibling.

Someone who works in care can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe they get changed on demand in homes as between all of the residents the carers wouldn't have time to attend to all of the other needs.

If someone is faecally incontinent they need to be changed as soon as they've been. Obviously due to it being unpleasant for the person but also because of their skin.

"So. After your last post, as long as it's"fluffy" caring, you're happy to do it?" Seems very much the case. Fetching shopping. Making meals and cuppas, brushing hair and reminiscing... Very much not the reality for most!

"These are all people I know well who have reasonable sized homes, no parental abuse (actually have perfectly decent parents), no complex situations (we're not talking about dementia or people with two lots of elderly parents at the same time)." Wow! Just refusing to "get it" aren't you?!

There are people who would claim to know me well who have NO IDEA what my childhood was like.

Home size is a VERY minor factor in the whole consideration.

No complex situations - you don't KNOW that for certain. People are often very secretive/private about such matters, mainly as it is not necessarily your business!

"No dementia" - maybe not yet but it's highly likely at some point in the future. If not dementia causing difficult behaviours, stroke, fluctuating blood sugars, or any number of other issues even occasional uti's can cause MASSIVE behavioural changes in the elderly that can be extremely challenging even dangerous to try and deal with alone.

"Not an expert though..." You don't say!!

"but I think that's selfish TBH." YOU are in NO position to judge! You've never done it!!!

"In terms of dominating the TV, well there would have to be compromises made (either its family voting and/or they have a TV in their own room when they want to watch specific things)" OH. MY. GOD! The naivety! How about elderly strong physically but dementia suffering parent decides tv too loud and throws it out window? That has happened here recently with a neighbour, the tv nearly hit a passing pedestrian!

Stairlifts. - again not safe for all, cognitively impaired people can't be trusted to stay in it while it moves, severely disabled cannot support themselves to sit in one -do you even know how they work? They're really only suitable for people who are still relatively fit and well.

Bedroom downstairs - meaning the carers are likely upstairs TRYING to get some sleep and maybe worried sick person downstairs might fall and they don't hear or if somewhat mobile but cognitively impaired turns the cooker on in the middle of the night and forgets until a fire starts.

Clueless - completely clueless!

None of your updates make me think any differently. You have tinted, rose coloured glasses on with blinkers attached!

@LondonJax

I realise how difficult it can be, my own parents have just been through about ten years of a very similar story to yours with my Nan who recently died aged 97.

Are you saying then that you would have been fine with one of your siblings saying at the start 'I'm not interested in doing elder care so don't expect me to help'?

I think I see the issue OP, your family's lived experience of elderly care being needed was someone who was getting doddery, struggling with moving and housework, until close to the end when they needed personal care for a limited time. You think that's what youd be signing up for, so are ok with it.

My family's experience is of physically fit and strong older people, but dementia for over the last decade of their life. Weve had 2 family members with dementia and it's a very, very different thing to deal with. Both lived for over 10 years past the point it wasnt safe to leave them living alone. Which meant they could never be left alone. Not for 20 minutes while you popped to the shops. Not for dinner out with your DH, having given them dinner first and settled in front of the tv. Needed constant supervision.

My mum felt it was immoral to put her mum in a home, rather like you. So they stuck it out for much longer than they should have done. In the end, it was Nanas health failing (she had a stroke) that meant they finally let her go into a home.

Be careful, you cant presume either set of parents will need neat care, or know who you are.

In the same way that people are perfect parents until they have children, you are a perfect carer until you have to care.

You don't know. But good luck, I hope you never find out the reality.

Yes, they can fall over at home and need a proper hoist to get back up which we wouldn't have. I realise we may need to wait with them for the Ambulance to arrive...but surely better that than the same thing happening to them at home on their own?

If they're at their own home with a falls pendant a team of trained carers would be with them with special equipment within an hour. If they were waiting longer and a carer was close by they'd be sent to sit with them while they waited for the trained carers. They'd have intercom system fitted and the minute they fell a friendly voice would ask if they were okay and reassure them help was on the way. They stay on the line until help arrives.

If they were in a nursing home or independent living facility help would be minutes away, as would the equipment needed to get them up safely. I think that's damn sight better than sitting on the floor of someone else's home waiting 4+ hours for an ambulance and then being admitted to hospital for days.

Once incontinent we would use the money from the spare house being sold to have carers in X times per day for the personal care element.

Private carers cost around £700 a week. So any money from a typical house sale will only last you a few years.

Also, you're assuming that what happened with your gran will also happen with your PILs and your mum - that they'll remain basically able to live alone with just you and/or some carers popping in. That's very naive.

Like many PPs have said, come back when you're actually doing the caring yourself - at the moment you just come across as naive, sanctimonious, judgemental and ill informed.

Oh, OP. You mean well but I think you have no idea about the reality of the situation. It's about so much more than the practicalities. It's the long hours, the sense of duty, the cancelled holidays, the impact on your mental health as yet again you have no free time because you have to drive someone to a hospital appointment or pick up food shopping or sort out a mix up with prescriptions.

The cost of things like bath hoists and bed hoists isn't cheap - I'm glad you can just go out and buy them as and when but most people couldn't do that. Lots of parents aren't happy with their children doing intimate care for them, and that includes helping them in and out of baths. You have this idea that you'll just buy things and it'll be okay but what if your parents' don't want these things?

When my granddad passed away he was 93 - up until his late eighties he was living independently at home and he was absolutely fine with someone doing his shopping for him as he could no longer drive. But the last few years were horrible for everyone. He became forgetful and upset when he couldn't remember things. He didn't want to take his medication and would get angry if people tried to make him. He was frail and had several falls, but refused to leave his home. He didn't want carers coming in even though it was necessary to keep him alive.

He just didn't understand what was happening to him. He was so used to being independent and then suddenly he wasn't. He was scared and upset I would imagine, and frightened because he knew he was going to die. He didn't like the fact that he couldn't remember people's names or faces. He thought people were there when they weren't, and vice versa. Living with a parent like that for what, 3-4 years isn't easy. And doing it on top of working a full-time job and looking after your own children is asking for trouble.

It sounds like OP is under the impression that if mobile, elderly parent pays for carers to come in 3/4 times a day to provide basic needs and deal with incontinence and OP calls round every now again to chat she will be providing care for her parent.

OP has a very big, rude awakening in store

Are you saying then that you would have been fine with one of your siblings saying at the start 'I'm not interested in doing elder care so don't expect me to help'?

Yes, I'd be perfectly understanding of someone who said that. Elder care is bloody hard and I think those who do it (especially for their own family) are bloody amazing. But it's not for everyone. And I think asking someone to help when they're not capable of doing so is really unpleasant and could cause long-lasting issues down the line.

I believe a carer comes 3 or 4 times a day for this.

Who's going to pay for that? Carers can cost hundreds of pounds a week, care home costs can run into the thousands.

I find it odd though that anyone wouldn't want to care for their elderly parents and find a way to make it happen...
Are you saying then that you would have been fine with one of your siblings saying at the start 'I'm not interested in doing elder care so don't expect me to help'

DSis and I have now both said this. If you had ever been the child of our parents you'd undertsand. Everyone else will think we are evil, but they only get the glad handed Mr Nice and his Nice Wife.. they don't get the thieving, emotionally blackmailing, narcissistic bigots. We get all of that.. and no it isn't an age thing, they've always been like that. Just took us a long time to find our way out of the FOG!

I would never blame anyone for saying no... as I would assume they too have their reasons!

Once incontinent we would use the money from the spare house being sold to have carers in X times per day for the personal care element

The problem with this plan OP, is that people don't tend to need the toilet at the exact time carers are there. What are you going to do if one of your IL's soils themselves and no carer is due for 2 hours. Just leave them sat in their own faeces feeling uncomfortable and getting sore? And older people tend to also need toileting at night and I promise you carers won't be doing a 2am call. You will be doing it. So unless you're planning on having a 24 hour live in carer then you need to be willing to do personal care if you have an elderly relative living with you.

Not everyone has nice parents.