UK lost measles free status

[Stressedout10]

So due to all the anti Vaxers the WHO have stripped us of our measles free status.
What next ?

It doesn’t directly and provably have an effect. It might. And it isn’t reasonable to blame me because another child can not be vaccinated. If I think vaccination will harm my child I am entitled to that choice.

Yes, it does. We know for a fact that some people rely on herd immunity to not get contagious diseases. We know that people choosing not to vaccinate their kids compromises herd immunity. We know that diseases such as measles are on the increase in countries like the UK and the USA. Therefore a person's decision not to vaccinate provably causes harm to people who genuinely can't have vaccinations for medical reasons.

A person is entitled to choose not to vaccinate your child. But they aren't entitled to face no sanctions for that choice. I don't think the kids of antivaxxers should be exuded from school, because it's not fair to penalise children for having bad parents, and because their best hope to escape the idiocy of their parents is to receive a state education. But I think parents should face another penalty, such as heavy fines or compulsory parenting courses.

@higgyhog - exactly. In my maternal language - the word for Measles means ‘a fate worse than death’, because survivors often have horrific permanent disability after getting the illness. I knew several girls with older siblings, born in another country, who required 24-7 care and were effectively immobile (and many whose elder siblings had died of Measles). Their parents were so grateful for the vaccination programme here. And I think that’s what the problem is - Antivaxxers aren’t really doing this for any reason except dodgy Instagram stories and because it’s not their kids dying. The minute their kids start dying/ being disabled then they’ll start vaccinating but by then they’ve murdered / disabled their kid and god knows how many others.

Yes, it does. We know for a fact that some people rely on herd immunity to not get contagious diseases. We know that people choosing not to vaccinate their kids compromises herd immunity.

That doesn’t make me to blame for that. I am not to blame for other people’s health conditions. My child isn’t to blame either. I will do what I believe is best for my child.

No entry to state funded education or free nursery hours unless there’s proof the child is vaccinated (or a medical exemption certificate.) The children who can’t medically have the vaccination shouldn’t be at high risk of contracting a disease that could kill them because of idiotic parents who refuse to vaccinate. There are children with health issues that mean measles will end up with them being seriously ill in hospital. If you choose not to vaccinate your child, fine, but choices have consequences.

@WatcherintheRye I totally agree with you

That doesn’t make me to blame for that. I am not to blame for other people’s health conditions. My child isn’t to blame either. I will do what I believe is best for my child.

Are you sure your kids are vaccinated? Your posts suggest not. Why do you keep talking as though you are an antivaxxer if you aren't one?

Anyway. Nobody is blaming children for having bad parents. And nobody is blaming you for the fact that immunocompromised kids exist. But if you make decisions which cause harm to other kids, you will and should be blamed for that. It's not enough for you to say 'it's not my fault they're immunocompromised' if you are making decisions which will cause them harm.

Both of MIT had single vaccination, not because if the autism scare, but because I didn't want my children to have 3 vaccines at once, I felt it might be too much for their little bodies, I took proof to our go and it is listed on their notes.

I dont think its unethical to make preventative treatments mandatory. Look at the wearing if seatbelts. Car seats for babies. Interventions if the pregnant mum is on drugs.

People saying what's the point in vaccines if you can still catch it. No vaccine is 100pc effective. Have made these figures up but say you have a 7 in 10 chance of catching measles if come into contact with it. But a 1 in 10 chance if vaccinated. Still worth it as you are increasing the chance they wont catch it by 300pc. And on a population level, of course they can easily prove that it's more mild eg less or shorter hospital stays, fever long lasting side effects.
.
I think this debate has shown how people view self compared to society - the self is being seen as increasingly important and no one cares as much about the vulnerable in society.

I cant believe people are still against vaccination when the disease is back. And how autism is still mentioned even though it's been disproved time and time again. I was speaking to someone the other day who had her son vaccinated but said now she knows what she does about autism she wouldn't any more. I asked her if she knew measles could kill and 1 in 15 children who get it are left with a lifelong disability eg hearing loss and she had no idea. She had just heard one side of the debate.

There was a sizeable measles outbreak where I live when my baby was going to nursery so I extended my leave so she could be vaccinated before going. We lost a months salary to other peoples stupidity but a lot of people wont have had that option

I do think vaccinations should be mandatory before school. Why should you benefit from herd immunity if you're not going to contribute? Why is your right to 'parental autonomy' greater than a vulnerable child's right to live? The risks of vaccine damage have been proven to be negligible, vs the risk of an unvaccinated child dying are 1 in 100. Of course everyone is going to prioritise their own child but when it's a choice between slightly sore arm for yours vs death for others, anyone who chooses their own child in that scenario is selfish and ignorant

(Obviously none of this applies to children who cant be vaccinated)

the educational approach does not work very well though, does it? I have seen plenty of research (and I mean peer reviewed scientific papers, not Google) that points to the fact that engaging antivaxxers in rational, informed debate does not work to change their minds, their position is steeped in irrational fears, often in identity as well, ad reinforced by people around them in what they perceive to be their "group"

it may work with the parents who are just a little unsure, but not with convinced antivaxxers who believe it is all a conspiracy theory and you are an idiot for believing experts and the government

I don't like coercion either, but what are we to do, return to the Middle Ages?

Remember the AIDS adverts with the tombstone? totally unproductive.

Evidence?

Contrary to what a lot of people seem to think, fear is often quite useful as a public health tool.

The use of crystal meth, for example, was pushed down partly through uncompromising adverts which showed the grim effects that CM often has on the body (rotting teeth, manky skin, etc.).

Ds's first vaccs were delayed on GP advice as he was prem. I was surprised he adjusted the timetable tbh but pleased at the flexibility shown. It was a worrying 3 months though. I can't imagine what it would be like if there was an outbreak while you were waiting.

ErrolTheDragon and JudgeRindersMinder
Thanks for that. It was 23 years ago and I couldn't remember why I had misgivings about the vaccine. You are right there was no real internet then and I had probably read speculation in the press. I went ahead and vaccinated because I chose to trust the advice of health professionals.Also because I had measles as a child.

In the 1960s measles was as common as chicken pox but much, much more serious. I was lucky to be left with only slight, but permanent deafness.

Wouldn't targeting the 'bit unsure' sector help boost herd immunity? There will always be hard line antivaxxers but they seem to be getting their message across more effectively than hcps at the moment which hasn't always been the case.
Freely admit I had reservations. Still would about HPV tbh but that doesn't apply to my family so I don't have to consider the pros and cons.

Woodlandwitch because they are. Measles has a 3 week period where it is contagious but symptomless. Unvaccinated children are more likely to catch it, and more likely to spread it. No vaccine is 100% and the more you come in to contact with a contagion, the more likely it is to fail. So going to school for 3 weeks with undiagnosed measles, places ALL kids at risk.

If you told parents to vaccinate or lose free childcare hours and free schooling only a the hardcore anti vaxxers would continue to refuse vaccinations for their DC. A lot of people were caught up in the hysteria from Wakefield and there’s a hangover of mistrust from that. It’s being fuelled by social media. Some truly buy into the anti vaccination ‘science’ but for many the fear isn’t based on anything concrete but on a nebulous feeling of uncertainty. When people are given a real life choice of vaccinate or find your own childcare and fund or provide 13 years of education they’ll assess their priorities.

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/mar/04/australia-could-become-first-country-to-eradicate-cervical-cancer

For Saucery

I know 2 people who have had mumps recently, both were vaccinated.
However the chances of them coming into contact with virus should have been much lower if everyone was vaccinated in the first place.

Hmmmbop - but vaccinated children have the same ability to spread the contagion, they get the virus, but the vaccine fights it off before it takes hold. That’s how vaccines work.
A vaccinated or unvaccinated child can spread it in a symptomless fashion in exactly the same way.

That’s why being vaccinated does not protect the immunocompromised if the vaccinated have been in contact with the disease

Some of you should consider whether you really want to live in a country where the state can impose fines, send you on compulsory parenting courses, deny your child a birth certificate, deny them education deny you financial help in times of unemployment, so basically denying you bodily autonomy (because people have to eat!) solely because you've made a parenting choice that the majority disagree with.
It would be the thin end of the wedge. How long before women's bodily autonomy can be overridden because they are pregnant?
Be careful before you throw away your parental right to choose as you see fit for your own DC. Not all decisions are wise but they are yours to make!

An no, the vaccine is not more likely to fail with more contact.
It would actually increase immunity in the vaccine after child.

Thanks Breathlessness. It's all academic to me like I said but every positive story that freely acknowledges any drawbacks is helpful to restore faith in mass vaccination programmes.

• vaccinated child , not vaccine after

It’s spreading misinformation exactly like this saying that vaccines can fail the more they are exposed to a contagion that spurs people to not vaccinate, or avoid hospitals or doctors surgery’s when they need them.

It's not comparable to seat belts. Vaccination involves taking something into your body without total assurance that it won't harm you.

I agree that education doesnt really work for antivaxxers. It's almost like a little bit of education does more harm than good but he average person doesnr have the medical or scientific background to be able to separate the bullshit from the science

For example vaccinations contain formaldehyde. People think of preserved frogs in biology lessons and start wailing about being poisoned and the government wanting children to be ill etc. A tiny bit of research shows formaldehyde is produced naturally by the body, you are only injected with a tiny fraction of what you make in a day, and the excess is excreted out rather than metabolised. There is an argument against every single ingredient, myths around vaccine shedding etc etc. Its impossible to argue against people who are convinced that the government are trying to kill their children and any scientific study that proves they are wrong is funded by big pharma (who are injecting people with a lifetime of disease to ensure they sell their products).

I dont know what the answer is. Maybe it would help with people on the fence, but a lot of these people are educated and have access to more information than ever...so I dont know why they aren't educating themselves