UK lost measles free status

[Stressedout10]

So due to all the anti Vaxers the WHO have stripped us of our measles free status.
What next ?

China, as you might have seen above, we had two children like yours at our school. We all truly did our best to let the school know whenever we had a sore throat, a cough or a low temperature (basically every minor cold). All parents really did their best and it all worked out because of that. I hope all goes well for your child

No more refusing inductions. No more waiting to see whether you want chemotherapy. No more saying you disagree with the doctor and, actually, you would prefer to go on X than Y medication. No more needing to be committed before people can make you take substances you don’t want to take. That is how slaves are made.

I thought you weren’t talking about slippery slopes. Again, show me on case study where a mandatory vaccination programme is leading to this dystopian nightmare you’re taking about... just one. What a load of scaremongering bollocks.

I thought you weren’t talking about slippery slopes. Again, show me on case study where a mandatory vaccination programme is leading to this dystopian nightmare you’re taking about... just one. What a load of scaremongering bollocks.

I didn’t say slippery slope when you accused me of it. Now I am talking about it. What about it is scaremongering bollocks? Why are you going on about case studies? There are countries where you have rights. There are countries where you have no rights, both presently and historically. What do you think moves one to the other, if not a first step?

I think the advice on vaccination is very clear and there is minimal debate around it in terms of the evidence base. Much more clarity than there is, for example, on when inductions are appropriate. In terms of chemotherapy I suspect, in the case of a child where chemotherapy was as clearly indicated as vaccination is for healthy children, court orders would be sought if parents declined. Parents who did not wish to vaccinate would also retain the right to home educate or to use private education. So I don’t think we’d be making slaves.

StupidBody I am really grateful for your post. We have had so much support from school parents already which has meant so much over what has been a truly horrendous summer and it’s lovely (and very reassuring) to hear of attitudes like yours and others at your school prevailing

I think the advice on vaccination is very clear and there is minimal debate around it in terms of the evidence base

So you don’t think a person should have the right to decline medical advice?

Like all the other people on this thread who don’t understand the concept, please give this some thought.

And a question: if a doctor gave your daughter advice that you disagreed with, that you honestly thought might harm her, are you seriously telling me you would take it, to save my child?

I am taking a break from this thread. It is making me seriously fucking angry.

I hope all goes well for your daughter, China.

I absolutely think people should have the right to decline medical advice. Certainly for themselves. For others - such as children - who lack capacity to make the decision that is a more complex ethical issue. As I said - there would be other options for those who did choose not to vaccinate. Do I think people should be able to use publicly funded services when they have made choices which are not advised and which put others also using those services at greater risk? That’s also a harder question.

Anyway, thanks for the well wishes - that is genuinely appreciated

From the Oxford Journal of Travel Medicine

' the majority of importations of measles are in short-term travellers.3 Large, sustained outbreaks in countries with sub-optimal immunisation coverage, such as many countries in Europe, result in regular incursions by travellers into regions that have eliminated measles, some resulting in local outbreaks. One of the criteria set by the WHO for monitoring the maintenance of measles elimination is a rate of locally acquired cases of

Oh - the answer to your question. Would I do something that I genuinely thought might harm my daughter to save yours? Well, it would depend on the level of harm vs the benefit to yours - so I’d be happy for her to have a blood test to save yours for example. I’d also be happy to keep my daughter away from yours if I’d made a decision I was advised was not in my daughters interests and might cause risk to your daughter in order to save your daughter.

This is the responsibility of all of us, isn't it? I think we have to try persuasion with anti-vaxxers, one person at a time. Patiently and kindly or something. We know and insulting won't work, so just patiently explaining, emphasising the problems in the reasoning behind their stance etc. Threads here are quite good for that and I'm sure there's other SM where the same thing happens. One step at a time.

I don't think vaccinations should be mandatory for the reasons hercule has outlined, though I very much support the herd immunity thing and think vaccines are a brilliant medical discovery.

It's one of those things where society as a whole has to take a stance - a bit like shunning absent fathers who won't pay for their children (I know that doesn't happen atm, but I live in hope).

Eventually it becomes socially unacceptable not to be vaccinated, a bit like smoking; anti-smoking feeling in a large proportion of our population was helped by the ban, of course.

I think that my daughter's generation, as a whole, are more sensible about vaccinations. There are a few exceptions, obviously, but children will remember how awful it was when measles ran rampant through their nursery, or when their friend died from it or became brain damaged etc. I think, sadly, that it will take another epidemic and some very serious consequences before the current generation of anti-vaxxers start to rethink their stance.

Would I do something that I genuinely thought might harm my daughter to save yours? Well, it would depend on the level of harm vs the benefit to yours - so I’d be happy for her to have a blood test to save yours for example.

Firstly, apologies for swearing earlier. It was frustration but you didn’t earn it and it wasn’t at you.

I would have a blood test to save your child. I would give my child a blood test to save your child. But here is the crux of it: I would not force my child to have a blood test to save your child, and that is the implication at the heart of this, that my child has to.

I accept that the question of whether someone does something to save someone else isn’t an entirely simplistic one. It isn’t black and white. But my opinion, on balance, is that I would rather live in a society where I and my children enjoyed a cast iron guarantee of medical autonomy, than a society where that principle had been diluted.

I think the focus on anti-vaxxers is a bit of a red herring. Several medical professionals in the U.K. have repeatedly stated that the fall in vaccination rates has more to do with under-funding and poor admin as a result of the split of public health to local authorities rather than a fall in public confidence. A case in point: there is a measles outbreak every other year or so in the area of London I live in. The take-up rate amongst a large religious group who live here is very low. On paper this is due to their 'anti-vaccination' beliefs. In actual fact, studies have shown there is very little resistance to vaccinations in the community. Most parents who fail to vaccinate either don't know where/when to take their children, forget or think the services on offer won't meet their particular cultural needs.

Newspaper articles now consistently blame any increase in measles on anti-vaxxers whilst ignoring the socio-economic factors that contribute to the situation. In DP's home town (in Italy) there was a huge outbreak amongst a marginalised community who would love to get their children vaccinated but are prevented from accessing health provisions by the country's right-wing authorities.

I unfortunately know several anti-vaxxers who are friends with DP. Most of them are a bit batshit. I don't doubt they influence some parents but I think more emphasis should be placed on ensuring the correctly funded provisions are in place to meet community needs.

Hercule - thank you - the apologies and well wishes genuinely appreciated
I do understand where you’re coming from and agree there are lots of grey areas here.

Just for clarity, in the US the government doesn't force vaccination. But there's a well established legal principle here that your right to wave your hand around stops at the other person's face. So if you won't vaccinate your kids you have to home school them. That eliminates the increased risk to other children and school staff.

Since New York eliminated the religious exemption for the vaccination requirement I'm sure some parents who previously skipped it will vaccinate and some will home school.

But there's a well established legal principle here that your right to wave your hand around stops at the other person's face.

This is a misunderstanding of that principle. Your right to protect yourself from illness extends to your right to vaccinate yourself, and precludes any right I have to stop you doing so. It doesn’t extend to stopping people who haven’t from accessing public spaces. You have this wrong.

This is a misunderstanding of that principle. Your right to protect yourself from illness extends to your right to vaccinate yourself, and precludes any right I have to stop you doing so. It doesn’t extend to stopping people who haven’t from accessing public spaces. You have this wrong.

New York Suburb Declares Measles Emergency, Barring Unvaccinated Children From Public

www.nytimes.com/2019/03/26/nyregion/measles-outbreak-rockland-county.html

Parents Wanted Their Unvaccinated Children in School, but a Judge Said No.

www.nytimes.com/2019/03/13/nyregion/measles-rockland-county.html

drsausage

I don’t see your point.

I have just taken my dc to get their shots, without this they couldn't get their school medical forms which they need for school registration.
I am not allowed to put other dc at risk by taking unvaccinated dc to school.
My dd has needle phobia and had to be held down for this to happen. But she understands that the vaccinations are to keep herself and others safe. She also understands that this isn't a choice she gets to make, like not wearing a seatbelt isn't a choice either.

My dd has needle phobia and had to be held down for this to happen. But she understands that the vaccinations are to keep herself and others safe. She also understands that this isn't a choice she gets to make, like not wearing a seatbelt isn't a choice either.

Where are you? It’s not like wearing a seatbelt here. It is the law that you have to wear a seatbelt. It isn’t the law that you have to have vaccinations. Depending on the age of the child, I suspect you might struggle to get a doctor or nurse to vaccinate while you held down your DC.

I don’t see your point.

That's convenient.

It doesn’t extend to stopping people who haven’t from accessing public spaces. You have this wrong.

It's a well established principle in US that under some circumstances the state has a compelling interest in protecting public health that does allow exactly this. Rights are never absolute, they are balanced between the individual and society, and this is where US has settled on this issue. If you don't vaccinate you home school and don't take the kids out during an outbreak.

I think the courts, including the Supreme Court on more than one occasion, has decided this correctly. So you can tell them that they have it wrong.

That's convenient.

Either debate or don’t. Snark isn’t helpful.

Rights are never absolute, they are balanced between the individual and society

Some rights are absolute, including the right to decide what to put in your body.

and this is where US has settled on this issue.

The US has also settled for Trump. I am no longer taking US decision-making as my model.

I think the courts, including the Supreme Court on more than one occasion, has decided this correctly. So you can tell them that they have it wrong.

If asked, I surely will.

To alter the course of this thread somewhat ... OH and I are middle aged farts and our GP practice advised us a couple of months ago to come in for MMRs, but when we rang up they said they'd run out of the vaccine 'due to unprecedented response'.

I had my measles vaccination in the 60s, no idea what type.

Is this about bolstering herd immunity or are we really at risk? We think both matter.

My dc is 11.
We are in the USA.
As she gets older she hopefully will be able to manage her panic better, if not she may need to go to hospital and be sedated.
It isn't nice watching her panic so much but I know, she knows and the nursing staff know this is to protect her from harm.
She worked hard on trying to manage her fear but couldn't manage this time. She will try again next year.
But unpleasant as watching her panic was I know watching her in intensive care would be worse because I have done that as well. I couldn't live with myself if I allowed my discomfort to put her there again.