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AIBU?

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UK lost measles free status

894 replies

Stressedout10 · 19/08/2019 08:26

So due to all the anti Vaxers the WHO have stripped us of our measles free status.
What next ?

OP posts:
JacquesHammer · 20/08/2019 15:54

It would make a difference to these children

You’re spectacularly missing the point as you so often and obviously deliberately do.

herculepoirot2 · 20/08/2019 16:04

You’re spectacularly missing the point as you so often and obviously deliberately do.

You’ve lost me.

StupidBody · 20/08/2019 16:05

Hercule, I had a lot of sympathy for your view up until this point, but I’m afraid we have to agree to disagree on this one

herculepoirot2 · 20/08/2019 16:09

Hercule, I had a lot of sympathy for your view up until this point, but I’m afraid we have to agree to disagree on this one

That’s fine.

StupidBody · 20/08/2019 16:09

Fine with me too Smile

Saucery · 20/08/2019 16:21

You did have to consent in the 70s. I remember taking a letter in. They didn’t just turn up and jab you. Unfortunately for me, in the 80s at secondary school my parents bypassed the ‘hand this letter to your form tutor’ as they knew I wouldn’t. Rubella and TB jabs were horrific there. Just awful.

StupidBody · 20/08/2019 16:27

Saucery, I had the TB jab... dreadful. Showing my age here, I also had the small pox jab (we were travelling to a remote location). That was truly horrendous, actually worse than TB. I am so happy small pox is gone.

Quite sad that TB jabs are needed again. My oldest (10) wasn’t offered it. It was voluntary for my middle and on the schedule for my youngest. I had the older two immunised privately as they were outside the age band when I realised that it now was recommended.

imtakingabath · 20/08/2019 16:28

@herculepoirot2 so basically what you’re saying is that someone who decides not to vaccinate their child should not suffer any negative consequences for their choice (which they are entitled to make, but there’s nothing to say that they are entitled to avoid any consequences as a result of it), even though their choice may well cause serious negative consequences for others. Does that sound fair to you?

MissConductUS · 20/08/2019 16:28

I just wanted to put forward (as a more extreme thought) the possibility for an anti vax parent to only be able to access an anti vax school with associated very high risk of measles

And too bad for the teachers and school staff I supposed.

herculepoirot2 · 20/08/2019 16:30

so basically what you’re saying is that someone who decides not to vaccinate their child should not suffer any negative consequences for their choice (which they are entitled to make, but there’s nothing to say that they are entitled to avoid any consequences as a result of it),

Not any consequences. It’s fine for you to not invite them to playdates and parties, and fine - if you like - for you to call their parents twats. None of that bothers me. But sanctions that breach one right for an exercise of another right that someone happens to disagree with are illegitimate sanctions.

Saucery · 20/08/2019 16:31

StupidBody we were told we had to keep the green form as proof that we had had it. I still have mine. No way was I going through that again. Hope they are more sympathetic these days when giving jabs.

imtakingabath · 20/08/2019 16:33

@herculepoirot2 but no one has a right to go to a specific school of their choosing (unless they pay for it). They have a right to a school place, which they would still get, just at a school for unvaccinated children.

LellyM · 20/08/2019 16:37

What I don't get is all the people who say "MMR = autism" because of 1 dodgy scientist who has since been proven to have fabricated his results and has been struck off. Why believe him and not the 100s of other scientists who say the opposite?

I'd rather risk autism than possible death/disablement through measles.

herculepoirot2 · 20/08/2019 16:37

@herculepoirot2 but no one has a right to go to a specific school of their choosing (unless they pay for it). They have a right to a school place, which they would still get, just at a school for unvaccinated children.

They have a right to choice in matters of their own healthcare. Restricting their access to education - but not that of others - on that basis is a sanction for exercising that right.

imtakingabath · 20/08/2019 16:40

@herculepoirot2 so if I exercise my right to freedom of religion by being atheist, does the fact that I have no right to a place at a catholic school count as a sanction for exercising that right?

herculepoirot2 · 20/08/2019 16:42

so if I exercise my right to freedom of religion by being atheist, does the fact that I have no right to a place at a catholic school count as a sanction for exercising that right?

That’s not really within my power to say or argue. I am not sure of the legal basis for faith school exemptions.

herculepoirot2 · 20/08/2019 16:44

But I do know that faith schools do accept some children outside their faiths. It would be more like you being told you were “allowed” to be an atheist but then being bundled off to a particular “atheist” school when you wanted to go to Tiffin and had the grades.

imtakingabath · 20/08/2019 16:45

@herculepoirot2 well that’s up to the school, isn’t it? So perhaps schools should be allowed to choose whether they accept unvaccinated children or not.

herculepoirot2 · 20/08/2019 16:46

well that’s up to the school, isn’t it? So perhaps schools should be allowed to choose whether they accept unvaccinated children or not.

They could, but I think they would face a legal battle, and I expect they would lose. Autonomy in healthcare is enshrined in law.

imtakingabath · 20/08/2019 16:48

@herculepoirot2 hence me saying “perhaps they should be allowed to” - in other words change the law.

herculepoirot2 · 20/08/2019 16:50

in other words change the law.

But courts are convened to decide whether a change in the law breaches any other, more fundamental law. You can’t put in a place a law saying that free choice in healthcare is going to be sanctioned in this case without undermining free choice in healthcare in all cases. The law would be unlawful.

bellinisurge · 20/08/2019 16:55

@imtakingabath , you can go to Catholic schools in our area and opt out of the religious bit. DD's classmates did this.

Tonnerre · 20/08/2019 16:55

Autonomy as regards healthcare is - outside extreme circumstances such as a loss of capacity or abusive behaviour towards a child - one of the areas where we don’t have to do so. It’s not like paying taxes or following the law. Your rights stop where my body begins

But, again, that isn't what the law says. Schools, for instance, have the power to require children to be removed if they are infectious, and the government has powers in the event of a threat of serious infection and contamination including the right to impose restrictions on individual people to prevent the spread of infection.

I didn’t say “absolute” at all. I recognise that I can’t prevent iron or oxygen entering my child’s body. I maintain that I can prevent crack from doing so. All chemicals.

A rather obvious attempt to divert the point, which looks suspiciously like deliberate obtuseness to avoid answering it herculepoirot. You are saying parents should have the right to prevent vaccines entering their children's bodies, I said the corollary of the right to decide what you will or will not deliberately put into your child's body is the responsibility of deciding what you will do to protect them from harmful inputs that they can't avoid.

What I am saying is simply that, in a situation where I believe that my responsibility to you and my responsibility to my child are in direct conflict, I will always choose my child.

But that isn't the vaccine situation. It's not a question of whether the risk of damage to child A should outweigh the risk of damage to child B because child A is your child. it's whether the tiny risk of damage to child A outweighs the greater risk of much greater damage to children A, B and many, many others.

herculepoirot2 · 20/08/2019 17:00

But, again, that isn't what the law says. Schools, for instance, have the power to require children to be removed if they are infectious, and the government has powers in the event of a threat of serious infection and contamination including the right to impose restrictions on individual people to prevent the spread of infection.

Those are temporary powers, in cases of actual infectious illness. That isn’t the same as a permanent power to force people to take medication. Even if you are contagious, the Government can’t force medicine into your body. It is assault.

, I said the corollary of the right to decide what you will or will not deliberately put into your child's body is the responsibility of deciding what you will do to protect them from harmful inputs that they can't avoid.

Obviously I need to protect my child from harmful inputs they can’t avoid, within my power to do so. That doesn’t include forcing others to take preventative drugs. That isn’t within my power.

it's whether the tiny risk of damage to child A outweighs the greater risk of much greater damage to children A, B and many, many others.

And because people have the right to free choice in matters of their own healthcare, the answer is yes, it does. I have the right to refuse a vaccine for my child. That includes when it means my child might pass germs to yours.

Tonnerre · 20/08/2019 17:08

You keep making absolute statements about what the law says, hercule, then when someone that produces evidence that you are mistaken, you constantly seek to qualify it. You said that everyone's rights stop where your body begins, I pointed out examples that showed that's not the case, and again you try to slide out of that. You can't keep moving the goalposts if you want to have a sensible discussion.

Of course you don't have powers as an individual to force others to take preventative medication, nor does the government. What it does have the power to do is to restrict someone's ability to spread the disease that results from their refusal to vaccinate against it, even when that infringes on their freedom of movement or their right to education.

I have the right to refuse a vaccine for my child. That includes when it means my child might pass germs to yours.

Rather spectacular statement of the obvious. Yes, that is currently your right. The question is whether it should continue to be your right, particularly when the risk is not just to other children but to your own child at most.