About sending DD to nursery targeting deprived kids?

[EssentialHummus]

I sorted a nursery place for DD(2) literally years ago, but that nursery forgot to tell me that actually they no longer offer the morning only times I wanted, and are still dicking us around.

I SAH and work when DD sleeps. All I want is a couple of morning sessions at a nursery for her to do different things and get used to a setting, and for me to crack on with work and get a bit of headspace. Everywhere is full, long waiting lists, don't do half days etc.

Yesterday I took her to a stay and play session at a nursery we'd never been to. Staff were lovely and clearly experienced from how they interacted with the kids, setting was small but full of creative areas/toys etc, nice garden. I asked the manager if they had nursery places and they have two morning sessions free from September (they are otherwise full). I could have kissed her!

But:
We live in an area that's 50% £££££ houses and 50% acute social deprivation, and this nursery falls in the latter, and I have the impression that most of the kids are probably from deprived families. And deprived in our area doesn't mean "can't afford Boden", it means "can't afford breakfast".

Their stated aim is to "support new parents and families facing difficulty". Their website talks about their commitment to providing 1:1 family support and outreach. The fee is really low. So we're not the target audience, for lack of a better term.

I asked for feedback on the local FB group, and the two mums who replied with kids there are women I vaguely know and who I'm pretty sure have mild learning difficulties. (They're both nice, fwiw, and liked the nursery.)

Not sure what I'm asking really. I'm inclined to take the place - it's a great nursery, near home, lovely staff, cheap, and DD is bright and happy and doesn't need much from nursery other than the chance for a bit of independent play. I'm sure some smartass will come along shortly to say I'm worried about DD "catching poor" - I'm not, but sending her to a nursery that specifically targets families in difficulty? Would you? AIBU?

Tangent - Does anyone know why some places have midwives and HVs at the childrens centre rather than at the gps? Where I lived before the midwife was at the gps surgery and it seemed lots more practical as it meant you could get a prescription done easier if you needed one etc. I think doing it this way means pg women have to travel about more.

A few reasons
Space
Money
Neding to put the centres to use (people through the door)
So mums are familiar from pregnancy

I tend to find that nursery's like this one are actually better, as are the schools. They seem to have a lot more provisions etc.
We moved house and my son had to change school. His first school was in a deprived area and had lots of funding, cool trips mostly free, great provisions. Had a lot of great provisions for kids with additional needs etc.
The school we moved to is middle class, no funding, everything has to be paid for by parents, hardly even a glue stick in the classroom, little to no trips, no provisions for sen.

@danni0509 You do realise, that usually, when a child has learning difficulties they have additional funding for their own 1-1 worker. So it takes away zero staff from the other children.

This isn’t true. 1:1 funding happens if the child has an ehcp, which is unusual with children so young. Ehcp applications at that age get rejected in my experience.
Also, many children have undiagnosed SEN at that age, and behavioural issues don’t mean a child gets 1:1. These nurseries are often very stretched. Of course there are exceptions and this doesn’t mean the staff aren’t great or the children aren’t happy there

Honestly? No.

I used to have the positive attitude that I wanted my DC to have a real education. A full experience of life as it was, not shielded middle class private education.

I was wrong. The day my 4 year old came home having been sexually assaulted by a child whose home life I had previously sympathised with I ended my rosy glow of 'life education'. If I'd chosen a private school who knows, it might have still happened. But the chaos that child causes in their class is hugely disruptive and my child, and other children suffer.

Masketti Your poor daughter. I hope the school supported you and her afterwards. That sounds like a terrible failure to safeguard her.

@Imustbemad00 I didn't say behavioural issues, I said learning difficulties. What I said was this.

You do realise, that usually, when a child has learning difficulties they have additional funding for their own 1-1 worker. So it takes away zero staff from the other children.

Ds had additional early years funding in nursery age 2 for a 1-1. He received that for 2 years. 1-1 for the full hours he did, his ehcp was underway whilst he was still 3.

He had an EHCP for when he started school age 4. That now enables him to have full time 1-1 at school.

I also know other children that the above has happened to. I regularly post on the SN section on here where the dc's same age as my ds all have 1-1's, Ehcps, & had the 1-1 nursery funding.

Ds has obvious very SN though.

Ds has very obvious SN though. That was supposed to say.

@Userzzzzz nope they were/are dreadful. I am hamstrung and have no choice but to continue sending her there. I do not let them get away with anything now and am prepared to be 'that mother' to keep her safe.

I sent my dd to a nursery like this. Like you i was impressed by the facilities and the staff and I liked the idea that dd would mix with a variety of children.

I don’t regret it but I’m not sure it was the best decision. When she left at 2.5 she was one of the only children who could talk English (some were delayed in language development and many spoke a different language) so she spent more time talking with the adults than interacting with the other children. I know 2.5 was young to make proper friends but she rarely mentioned any other children. She certainly didn’t miss out ‘academically’ but that wasn’t really what I wanted from her nursery experience

So what's the issue? No Boden? My dd goes to a preschool like this and it's lovely.

@jellycatspyjamas I fully appreciate there is a wide range of developmentally appropriate behaviours that are displayed by two year olds. I am a paediatrician (although I caveat by saying I’m an intensivist, not developmental). The point I am making here is that there WAS no range. It wasn’t that some children were still in nappies, some still in buggies, some still pre-verbal, some who’s speech was severely affected by the use of a dummy etc. It was nearly all of them. And that having experienced childcare in a less deprived setting beforehand it was apparent that there was a huge difference in the way this range was displayed.

As for attention span, following instructions etc, a two year old should be able to recognise their name and respond to it. To make some of their needs known. To follow simple one and two step instructions. I’m sure you’re well aware of this and simply spoiling to be dismissive of my personal and professional experience here, but no matter.

I have no skin in this game. But it would be disingenuous not to share my experience here so the OP can take from it what she wishes, just because you feel it is snobby.

Sorry haven't RTFT so may be missing the point but some childminders offer similar settings to nurseries and ofter much more flexible hours. Our CM picks up and drops off to our house too. 4 adults to 9 kids, £5 an hour and can choose what hours when, no sign up fees or holding fees like a lot of nurseries have too.

@Jeezypeepers, what I’m saying is that buggy use, dummies, being in nappies are all pretty common in 2 year olds - in just about all the 2 year olds I see.

I’m sure you’re well aware of this and simply spoiling to be dismissive of my personal and professional experience here, but no matter.

I have no interest in dismissing your professional experience here, I had no knowledge of your background prior to you posting about it. I simply don’t think many of the things you mention are unique to children from deprived areas. From my own person and professional experience, which clearly differs to yours.

@danni0509 That’s really good. I haven’t experienced that myself. Usually these nurseries are stretched money wise and aren’t given the extra funding to provide 1:1. Especially if there are lots of children with needs. Generally there isn’t enough support, and the children who are generally fine get over looked and left to get on with it. It’s a shame. Again, I want to stress that not all nurseries are like this.

My daughter actually went to a really crap nursery many years ago, but was safe and looked after and had a lot of fun, even if she didn’t learn much.

@danni0509
Can I ask who was providing the funding for 1:1 before the ehcp was in place? The local authority?
I’m genuinely interested as I know all LA’s are different, but as far as I know here they won’t provide funding to the nursery without an ehcp and even then they’ve been known to say no as it’s to early to measure outcomes.

@jellycatspyjamas of course these things are not unique to children from deprived areas. But the point is that they are certainly ubiquitous in them. Meaning that childcare settings working with extreme deprivation where children’s basic needs are not being met, are often pitching a lot of their teaching (whether that be around socialisation, vocalisation, hygiene and so on) at a different level than the OP would perhaps be working at with her own particular 2 year old.

You’re absolutely right that you had no knowledge of my background, and therefore I find it inappropriate that you would rubbish what I had said as my ‘picking every middle class stereotype’; and that there was a fear children would ‘catch the deprivation’ etc.

I was simply sharing my own observations having been in the unusual position of qualifying for a place in such an institution, but not necessarily coming from a similar background of the other attendees. Which seems exactly what the OP is posting about.

Not everything needs to be about classism. I’m not even British. Sometimes this forum is just other mothers, sharing experiences to try and help people in similar situations. It doesn’t always have to be a battle over who is the most woke. It’s simply about what’s best for the individual child based on their personality and previous experience. So @EssentialHummus if your child would thrive in something a little different from their usual, then go for it . They obviously have places going and if they’re not full they’ll lose their funding, so don’t feel guilty at all!

@Imustbemad00 Yes it was our LA. (Who can be absolutely ruthless with SN funding) They initially tried to give 10hr funding (ds did 15 hr) but nursery couldn't manage, so once the LA EP had been in to nursery he got the additional 5 hours too.

When it came to doing his EHcp whilst he was still at nursery, they had all the evidence they needed and the LA assessed for it and issued straight away, maybe it helped being in their system for 2 years already, I don't know.

I realise we have been lucky with this as it's not so plain sailing for everybody, but ds is almost 6 now and working at toddler level (barring a couple of spikes) so I suppose its evident.

Thanks jeezy. This is the thing really - I'm not worried about her "learning" in the strict sense, because I am really happy with what I've seen so far of her memory and curiosity and love of books. She's 23 months, bilingual, counts, knows the alphabet and uses adjectives, so she's clearly fine there - sorry to boast, I know how it reads. And it's not even social interaction exactly - we go to lots of groups etc. It's just that going somewhere with mum hovering in the background isn't the same as going to a nursery setting and learning to share, sort out squabbles, ask other adults for help, make friends independently etc. All I want of this nursery is for that to be facilitated there.

I'm now sending child no2 to a nursery exactly as you describe, OP.
It's an estate nursery in an area of multiple deprivation.
I live on the estate so I'm the "target" audience in that regard. But it's fair to say, I'm at the more MC end of things. I'm what passes for MC around here, I guess!

From your OP it sounds as though the staff are well qualified, dedicated and on the ball. This counts for a lot.
Yes, the kids on average may be a little "behind". Yes there may be behavioural difficulties.
But: they are 3 and 4 year old kids, supervised under offsted ratios.
My experience has been that the staff step in at the mere suggestion of unkindness. Its been a very protected, nurturing environment for them.

Word of warning: "1:1 family support and outreach" gets old pretty quick.

In the 5 years my kids have been going I've been asked to rank abstract nouns ("respect", "nurturing" "listening") in order of preference, I've had visiting students ask me to push a glass of water towards the edge of a table (to prove something about my ability to "take risks"), I've listened to people almost, but not accurately explain child attachment to me more times that I care to remember and DH has been asked if he wants to accompany a worker on a walk around TESCOs so they can point out which foods are "healthy".
I suck it up for the good of the kids.

I'm expecting someone to come along now and say "well of course you find it patronising and difficult: your not the intended audience." But, honestly, I think I deal with it better than the majority of other parents there. Because, I'm able to shrug it off and say "Haha, they don't really mean me"

Ime WC people are very sensitive to being patronised and WC mothers are especially hurt and frightened by any suggestion they might be bad mothers. Particularly if this comes from authority figures. And imo the nursery do communicate this message to us, a lot of the time. If only by implication.

I do wonder if this dynamic is behind some of the problems with Sure start. Perhaps it came across as a bit heavy handed and preachy and MC Mums were the ones able to shrug it off because they knew it didnt really apply to them.

Well if it is so enriching and a means of setting her up for life, at two years old, one wonders why professional or wealthy people dont all send their children to deprived inner city schools

Take the place. There is some evidence that suggests that if you child is from a less deprived/more articulate/brighter family, that mixing with more deprived children is good for all involved. Don't think of it as taking a place from someone who needs it. Your child has potential to enrich others at the nursery.

(It may sound wanky but it is true)

JADS: what research shows that deprived kids benefit from being around middle class kids?

I can’t help but feel like some of the replies questioning the OP’s concerns are a little disingenuous. It’s pretty settled ground that peer effect impacts the outcomes for children even at a nursery level. If you choose to dismiss these concerns as being ‘classist’ then you choose to deny the reality of a link between class and improved lifelong outcomes which is of course accounted for by numerous social and economic factors.

Peer effect isn’t the only issue though and a variety of other factors can compensate for this which you seem to have identified OP. On balance, it seems like a good idea to send your child to the nursery.

Catch poor? Do you k now what we live In A very affluent area (but aren't). It's the affluent kids who behave the worst EVERYTIMEAnd the private school kids actually have the money for drugs. Not many kids at the local state school can afford Coke habits.