About sending DD to nursery targeting deprived kids?

[EssentialHummus]

I sorted a nursery place for DD(2) literally years ago, but that nursery forgot to tell me that actually they no longer offer the morning only times I wanted, and are still dicking us around.

I SAH and work when DD sleeps. All I want is a couple of morning sessions at a nursery for her to do different things and get used to a setting, and for me to crack on with work and get a bit of headspace. Everywhere is full, long waiting lists, don't do half days etc.

Yesterday I took her to a stay and play session at a nursery we'd never been to. Staff were lovely and clearly experienced from how they interacted with the kids, setting was small but full of creative areas/toys etc, nice garden. I asked the manager if they had nursery places and they have two morning sessions free from September (they are otherwise full). I could have kissed her!

But:
We live in an area that's 50% £££££ houses and 50% acute social deprivation, and this nursery falls in the latter, and I have the impression that most of the kids are probably from deprived families. And deprived in our area doesn't mean "can't afford Boden", it means "can't afford breakfast".

Their stated aim is to "support new parents and families facing difficulty". Their website talks about their commitment to providing 1:1 family support and outreach. The fee is really low. So we're not the target audience, for lack of a better term.

I asked for feedback on the local FB group, and the two mums who replied with kids there are women I vaguely know and who I'm pretty sure have mild learning difficulties. (They're both nice, fwiw, and liked the nursery.)

Not sure what I'm asking really. I'm inclined to take the place - it's a great nursery, near home, lovely staff, cheap, and DD is bright and happy and doesn't need much from nursery other than the chance for a bit of independent play. I'm sure some smartass will come along shortly to say I'm worried about DD "catching poor" - I'm not, but sending her to a nursery that specifically targets families in difficulty? Would you? AIBU?

not very stealth boast alert OP my son goes to a primary school like this in a socially deprived, very diverse area. At five he can say hello in at least five languages and is really interested in how languages work. So that's one benefit you might not have thought of!

kewlwifee if you're an expert in this area can you address the issue I raised upthread of the cost involved in means-testing for Surestart access?

@herculepoirot2
It is an insinuation that it’s due to the area; an affluent area nursery is no guarantee of ‘nice’kids, the pp was unpleasant in her assumptions.

It is an insinuation that it’s due to the area; an affluent area nursery is no guarantee of ‘nice’kids, the pp was unpleasant in her assumptions.

I don’t think it’s unpleasant. I think there are factual links between problematic behaviours and poverty, and the poster is just recognising that. That doesn’t mean you won’t find problematic behaviour in affluent communities. But it is less likely because of the protective effects of affluence.

My dd had a place at an additional needs nursery, we had the place for autism but others attended due to low income- it was an excellent preschool and we contributed financially to help them

My mum was a head teacher in a language unit in a very deprived area of Glasgow in the 70's/80's. I used to be with her half the day and then a mainstream nursery in the same area for the other half.
It was fine.
I also used to attend a parenting class which had a sure start nursery attached to it, so DD went to the nursery. It was a great nursery with very experienced staff and good facilities.
I would go!

Filling a nursery place 2 mornings a week will be hard for the nursery, so I don't believe you will be taking a place away from another kid.
In terms of your child, the staff will be better qualified and more experienced than in private nurseries. Private nurseries tend to do gimmicky stuff like teach a few nursery rhymes and words in Mandarin, but it is the quality of care that really matters.
In terms of the other kids, we are talking about tiny nursery children. At this age behavioural problems due to chaotic home lives are more things like finding it difficult to follow instructions, being withdrawn or poor speech. We are not talking about taking drugs and committing crime. And the issues caused by a chaotic home life are pretty indistinguishable from SEN except to experts anyway at this age. So I doubt it will have any impact on your DC.

I don't know if sharing a setting with a child/children in a family with complex needs will somehow affect my DD's experience of the place to the extent that it'd make a difference.

It woudn’t. HTH.

OMG what a awful snobby post! What makes you think you or your child are any better to any child in a ‘deprived ‘area. Iv saw some awful swearing and rude behaviour by parents and their children in ‘ ‘ more affluent areas. My sister works in a child centre in a ‘ deprived ‘ area and I can tell you quite a lot of these children are talking in 2/3 languages, great manners, lovely kind parents. Doesn’t matter were you go there are always a mix. Manners are taught at home

There is a big difference between great parents in a deprived area, and chaotic families in need. I grew up in a very deprived area. Some great parents struggling with poverty, but also parents who were alcoholics, struggled to do the basics of feeding and clothing kids, etc. There is a big difference between poor and having a chaotic home life. But unless you have inherited wealth, people with a chaotic home life are generally poor as they often can't manage to keep a job for long.

I genuinely don’t understand what your issue or question is? Could you spell it out? I’ve read the OP twice. What exactly is the problem?

A PP is right regarding the failure of SureStart. The issue was that middle class parents (for want of a better word) were making use of the activities, the sessions and so on, whereas those for whom the scheme was actually designed were not engaging. The funding wasn’t reaching those who were most in need. This contributing to the services closing down so that other ways of using this funding more effectively and efficiently could be sought. It has been discussed in a few research papers as from one perspective it was an interesting ‘social experiment’ gone wrong.

OP I found myself in a bit of an odd position due to escaping DV where despite having worked as a hospital consultant (doctor) I was suddenly on my own in a deprived area with two toddlers, couldn’t work at first as couldn’t fit it around such tiny children either in terms of shift patterns or prohibitively expensive childcare on a single wage. I was completely socially and financially isolated and was grateful for the 2 year funded place my child was offered at a nursery serving an extremely, extremely deprived area.

The staff were lovely; but I was shocked at the differences in the children when compared to those in the nurseries of my friends and colleagues. The vast majority in the ‘two’s room’ came in pushed in buggies, with dummies in their mouths. Their speech was very limited due to both always having a dummy in, and often not much language at home due to drug and alcohol issues, neglect, very young unsupported mothers etc. They were all in nappies. They had very limited attention span and couldn’t follow instructions. Couldn’t put on any items of clothing. Many couldn’t hold a pencil/paintbrush etc. Lots of other issues, some around additional behavioural needs, some not.

My son actually regressed in terms of language as whilst the nursery teachers did model as best they could (and they were all brilliant); of course my son was going to go back to pointing and grunting when everyone else was. He started asking for his dummy again; for a bobo with juice etc, for crisps and sweeties on the way home like the other kids; that he wanted to go in the pram with his sister and didn’t want to walk anymore etc etc. He went back into pull ups as wasn’t being reminded to ask for the toilet by seeing other kids do it. Because these children were unable to express themselves well with words there was often a lot of hitting, toy snatching etc, which he then picked up on and brought home. They refused to try new foods they didn’t recognise, and refused to drink water asking only for juice.

HOWEVER a lot of this settled down as they all got older and moved up rooms etc, and I actually chose to keep him there for the 3/4/5 room. The parents were incredibly supportive of each other and nobody batted an eyelid that my children had to have supervised contact with dad, were in art therapy because of what they’d witnessed etc etc. I had other mum’s offer to help with childcare almost immediately so I could sort out our new, utterly falling apart house. And this was exactly what we needed at the time.

But when compared to my friends children at either the Irish language nursery, or the nature kindergarten etc (all private); I felt that my son actually fell behind in terms of language, socialisation, toileting and eating as a result of attending that nursery. The hours were only given to children who had social work involvement; were not with their birth families; had siblings in need of respite and some other means tested financial criteria that mean the levels of deprivation really were great, so it might be an extreme example. But that was our experience, and given I think this is what you fear I feel it is worth sharing with you. Good luck!!!

OMG what a awful snobby post! What makes you think you or your child are any better to any child in a ‘deprived ‘area.

It’s not the area, it’s the particular families that the nursery is apparently targeting. jeezy has articulated my concerns pretty well.

Hmm. I’m leaning towards taking it at the moment.

For what it’s worth some of the children I’ve worked with who have the worst language, the most sly behaviour and are so cruel to other children, are entitled little brats from well off families. I rarely call children brats- but if you had met some of these you would too. Then the parents think the sun shines out of little Horacio and Penelope’s behinds, and won’t have a bad word said about them. So the cycle continues.

My son went to a nursery in an area of high deprivation because of their reputation for being good for children with sn. It was a wonderful place with highly experienced staff who were good with all children.

@EssentialHummus

I attended a council run nursery for “families with problems”. For the most part, this translated to families with socio-economic deprivation and/or chaotic living conditions.

Neither applied to me. I had a chronically/terminally ill sibling and the nursery had longer opening hours than most, which was conducive to my parents’ circumstances.

My few vague memories are of having a very pleasant time. Nothing horrendous happened. I recall my then best friend making a sad and startling admission to me but because we were aged 3/4, it sailed right over the top of my head. And, of course, that could have happened anywhere. 🤷‍♀️

I grew up (reasonably) well adjusted, have a total of 3 degrees and work in a decent job. 😊

why is it possible the children will have behaviour problems???

Because the alternative is that it's impossible that the children will have behaviour problems...

More generally? I don't know if sharing a setting with a child/children in a family with complex needs will somehow affect my DD's experience of the place to the extent that it'd make a difference.

I hope it would make a difference, I’d hope it would help her grow up to challenge some of the awful judgements being made on this thread about children from deprived areas, children with complex needs, families who need additional support.

My two children have additional support needs which aren’t obviously apparent but definitely are there. I could have chosen to send them to the new, beautifully appointed school next to my house in a very middle class area where the kids are basically hot houses from birth.

What I actually did was place them in a smaller school 2 miles away on the edge of a very deprived estate. The school has lots of experience in supporting children from a diverse range of backgrounds, the ethos is nurturing and caring, the children are taught acceptance of themselves and each other, there are lots of additional supports and allied professionals available to support all the children, support is given in a way the isn’t stigmatising to the child or the parent.

Teachers are interested, creative in their approach to learning and build good relationships with parents. I’m on first name terms with my children’s class teachers and the leadership team and there’s excellent two way communication about my children’s learning.

The school is on every level a better school than the one next door to me, but it caters to children with complex needs and chaotic families.

Sorry, my little boy went to the nursery attached to the school for his pre-school year and everything I’ve said about the school was also true of the nursery.

@Bookworm4 it’s not nice but unfortunately it’s a fact. Private/expensive nurseries are completely different to most fully funded. I’m not being nasty, but if I’m a fully funded nursery a higher majority of children have Sen, behavioural difficulties or EAL, this can impact the care and learning staff are able to give unless they have the funding to provide a higher staff ratio and have very good resources. This is usually not the case.
It is also true that if you compare children in private nurseries vs fully funded, there is a difference. I don’t like it, it’s very sad, but it is definitely true. Brings the whole nature vs buried argument.

It is fairly easy to prove you're on a low income. Benefits entitlement basically. There's the NHS low income card if you (both) work but earn below the threshold. That wouldn't be very difficult to set up at all. It would literally take a form and a bit of honesty.

I think as a guideline, if you and your partner are working professionals AND not in an entry level position, you're unlikely to meet this threshold.

I can see why it could be stigmatising as every child would be from a similar socio-economic background, but I think it would improve engagement in services proven to reduce negative outcomes in poor populations.

If you're a black late teen/early 20s single mum with limited academic education and unemployed, walking into something like baby massage when it is full of MC, working, professionals mums, few of whom look like you, it's probably not going to be a welcoming environment.

@ThisHereMamaBear why is it possible the children will have behaviour problems???

The reasons are too complex to go into and are not fully understood, but behavioural problems are more prevelant in families and children living in poverty. This is not to say ALL children. But there are definite links and a lot of research has been done. Less opportunities, less language rich environments, less exposure, poor parenting, poor health,nutrition.
I know people will say I’m accusing poor people of being bad parents, I’m not, I’m just stating facts. (I’m a poorer single parent btw)
There are many more children with needs in funded nurseries that private. Schools are obviously different.

Nature vs nature not buried not sure why there’s so many spelling mistakes

Even if jeezy is right, your DC is going for two mornings a week. Regression of any kind is highly unlikely in that time scale.