About sending DD to nursery targeting deprived kids?

[EssentialHummus]

I sorted a nursery place for DD(2) literally years ago, but that nursery forgot to tell me that actually they no longer offer the morning only times I wanted, and are still dicking us around.

I SAH and work when DD sleeps. All I want is a couple of morning sessions at a nursery for her to do different things and get used to a setting, and for me to crack on with work and get a bit of headspace. Everywhere is full, long waiting lists, don't do half days etc.

Yesterday I took her to a stay and play session at a nursery we'd never been to. Staff were lovely and clearly experienced from how they interacted with the kids, setting was small but full of creative areas/toys etc, nice garden. I asked the manager if they had nursery places and they have two morning sessions free from September (they are otherwise full). I could have kissed her!

But:
We live in an area that's 50% £££££ houses and 50% acute social deprivation, and this nursery falls in the latter, and I have the impression that most of the kids are probably from deprived families. And deprived in our area doesn't mean "can't afford Boden", it means "can't afford breakfast".

Their stated aim is to "support new parents and families facing difficulty". Their website talks about their commitment to providing 1:1 family support and outreach. The fee is really low. So we're not the target audience, for lack of a better term.

I asked for feedback on the local FB group, and the two mums who replied with kids there are women I vaguely know and who I'm pretty sure have mild learning difficulties. (They're both nice, fwiw, and liked the nursery.)

Not sure what I'm asking really. I'm inclined to take the place - it's a great nursery, near home, lovely staff, cheap, and DD is bright and happy and doesn't need much from nursery other than the chance for a bit of independent play. I'm sure some smartass will come along shortly to say I'm worried about DD "catching poor" - I'm not, but sending her to a nursery that specifically targets families in difficulty? Would you? AIBU?

OP, once I would have been the kind of demographic that would have been able to be referred ..

I think you sound lovely personally . Let your little one go to the nursery, you are not taking a space and the fact you would donate toys and cash etc would be well welcomed .
Best of luck to your DD.

I long to ask where it is , lol Only because I have seen some of your previous posts and do you live in a london borough beginning with L ? I might have the wrong poster .

I know quite a few children's centre managers/workers and they often struggled with getting the people they wanted into sessions as they were full of MC parents and felt intimidating.

This ^^

I went a few times to the local Sure Start centre on my council estate but it was taken over by the above . Made me a bit angry as really it was set up for the disadvantaged . Also annoyed me the looks they gave .

when yup, that's me!

Ah thought so

If its the large estate known as D where the nursery is your DD will be fine . The school next to it is a wonderful school, my younger two went there . The head teacher, he joined some years ago as a deputy head, and he had just finished teaching at a private school in France . I admired him for taking on the challenge and doing well , My youngest son adores him to this day and he is almost 16 now.

By challenge I mean a totally different environment to a private school .

Oh thank God. I get it now. I thought OP was saying she's one of the mums' who give nasty looks.

I don't think that's the one when (though it sounds great!) - it's between the university and the posher neighbourhood up on the hill.

There is a middle ground between the Boden set and those living in deprivation. That's the ground I'd be aiming for.

Take the place: they wouldn't offer it to you if someone else needed it. In any case, I'm not sure that it benefits any child to have all the 'disadvantaged' children corralled together in one nursery and all the 'privileged' children sent to another.

It is in a nursery's interests to be full as they then have a bigger income, which means more to spend on the children. If you are able, consider making an additional monthly donation on top of what you have to pay, and give generously at any fundraising events.

I asked for feedback on the local FB group, and the two mums who replied with kids there are women I vaguely know and who I'm pretty sure have mild learning difficulties. (They're both nice, fwiw, and liked the nursery.)

Why's the learning difficulties bit relevant?

LD might warrant a state run institution where all staff receive standardised training and some staff have specialised training. They actually have to have this whereas a private nursery doesn't.

More generally? I don't know if sharing a setting with a child/children in a family with complex needs will somehow affect my DD's experience of the place to the extent that it'd make a difference. I don't think it would but the place just feels a bit too good to be true.

So the children have complex needs? or the family (mum, dad?) Not quite sure who's got the complex needs here.

Why would the child or the parents having SN affect your daughters experience? Genuinely confused?

Things are generally better organised nowadays luckily.

My local CC centre has 1 general stay and play, 1 baby stay and play and then everything else is targeted eg, young parents, multilingual families, twin group etc.

That seems very fair to me and also gives a space for DMs like me in the 'MC but can't afford jo jingles' middle

I'm not sure danni, but I wondered if these mums had been on the receiving end of the 1:1 or parenting support the nursery offered.

I also learnt today that the stay and play I went to, while open to everybody and with lots of different families there, specifically invites their nursery kids to attend with their parents/carers, so that they can be taught to interact positively with their kids if needed. And I heard that in action from listening to the staff with one or two of the mums.

Instead of worrying about the snob factor why don’t you check the Ofsted rating?
If you’re not entitled to a place because of criteria that’s a very different matter which I’m sure the staff will inform you of.
With regards to your child mixing with a broad range of children isn’t that fantastic? Your child will grow to be a well balanced child able to show empathy and compassion.

@Tippexy

“A PP is right regarding the failure of SureStart. The issue was that middle class parents (for want of a better word) were making use of the activities, the sessions and so on, whereas those for whom the scheme was actually designed were not engaging. The funding wasn’t reaching those who were most in need. This contributing to the services closing down so that other ways of using this funding more effectively and efficiently could be sought. It has been discussed in a few research papers as from one perspective it was an interesting ‘social experiment’ gone wrong.”

I don’t doubt what you’re saying but I feel like affluent parents are being blamed for the failure of SS whereas it HAS to be a failure of the SS centre themselves for not being able to engage with their customer group?

I have used SS centres with both babies, to get out and meet other mums. I don’t care about the socio economic grouping of these mums, it’s just nice to have a chat.

But, my local SS offers: baby massage, stay and play at 9am, sensory class, and discounted trips to the local stately home and working farm. With the greatest of respect these aren’t generally the kind of things that engage those in need of support.

take the toxic trio- violence, addiction, MH issues. Can’t see a parent with the above having the headspace to engage with those sorts of activities. Or poverty- £20 for baby massage, £5 for the stately home (of course this is already a massive discount but I would argue £20 for a baby massage course isn’t attracting the impoverished)

So I guess what I’m saying is SS are great, but if they’re not engaging the right families that’s not the fault of the wrong families

So the children have complex needs? or the family (mum, dad?) Not quite sure who's got the complex needs here.

The families afaik.

This is the sort of thing I'm worried about, from jeezy's post upthread: The vast majority in the ‘two’s room’ came in pushed in buggies, with dummies in their mouths. Their speech was very limited due to both always having a dummy in, and often not much language at home due to drug and alcohol issues, neglect, very young unsupported mothers etc. They were all in nappies. They had very limited attention span and couldn’t follow instructions. Couldn’t put on any items of clothing. Many couldn’t hold a pencil/paintbrush etc. Lots of other issues, some around additional behavioural needs, some not.

obi the Ofsted is very positive.

I'm not sure why CC need to "create space" for "MC" mums. Why don't private classes lower their prices to become more affordable for the "working just about comfortable" instead of making them only accessible to people who are comfortably affluent.

I wouldn’t. It is possible a lot of the children could have behaviour problems or learning difficulties which will mean the staff are stretched and the quality of learning poor. These are only maybes, but speaking from experience.

You do realise, that usually, when a child has learning difficulties they have additional funding for their own 1-1 worker. So it takes away zero staff from the other children.

@Passthecherrycoke

They didn't have the power or resources to stop it happening. In gentrified areas, those mums would know in advance about the classes (because they have the knowledge and power to know how to know these things) and tell all their friends and book out the classes. Online registration made it easier for staff in one sense but meant they were completely powerless to do anything themselves to get individuals who were in an At Risk demographic from being prioritised.

Some centres did try their own techniques by not advertising and only telling HVs and other allied professionals who would then tell mums. Of course giving them the space to come doesn't solve the other obstacles to uptake but that could have come with time. If people from the targeted demographic attended and found it beneficial, they would have told others from their demographic to come. Amongst disadvantaged groups, lay referral is key in high uptake in services/health promotion/seeking and adhering to medical treatment.

Personally, I had a big friendship ending argument with someone about it in 2016. They claimed that they had the right to use the services and they'd be using the money they would spend on private services to save for their child. Just no understanding that she was essentially blocking an underprivileged child from equality to afford her child more privilege.

Of course there are exceptions to this. LD/SEN change the context slightly.

I think the argument went that if they only ran the targeted classes people might not go to the childrens centre because they didn't want to be seen as struggling and by having a mix of classes it was seen more that all families used.

Plus of course you can be MC and struggling/isolated but not fit in to any target group. General church hall type groups can be daunting but CC groups will have workers/volunteers that will come over for a chat. When I went to the baby weighing clinic and mentioned I wasn't living in my home town the HV encouraged me to go to baby sign at the childrens centre.

You will undoubtedly have some issues with language and different standards of behaviour but you'll get them anywhere and will need to teach you DD what your standards are.

Personally, I think it's important that we all mix with people from as many backgrounds as possible but what I have found (my dc went to a primary school with the social makeup you describe) is that DC choose friends from families like theirs. That's not to say in the same financial situation, not at all, but families that have the same standards of behaviour etc. My DC's had some lovely friends from the council estate whose parents did their best with healthy eating, supported school work and expected good manners etc. Not all the families there were like that but my DC seemed not to want to be friends with their children (or vice versa)

*seen more as a space that all families used.

I couldn't believe some of my local friends who would happily sign up to baby massage at the local children's centre knowing they have a million quid in the bank.
The government wanted rich people to use sure start so poorer parents didn’t feel stigmatised.