..to ask all Leave supporters ( and anyone else) to write to their MP and say you will accept an NI only backstop so that we can leave the EU in an orderly way on 31 October 2019?

[bellinisurge]

Just that. We could leave on that basis . The EU is up for it. Are you?

S1naidSucks That's what people used to say about black swans, until of course someone saw a black swan.

De facto there is. You have to treat all countries the same under WTO rules. Allow free trade/open border with Ireland you have to do that for everyone.

Not exactly. A member state would have to bring a complaint against the UK, which they could deal with if and when that happens.

fter we leave, the UK, EU & Ireland will actually be forced to work together to create an actual soft/invisible border

So really, you have no idea about how such a border will work?

Let's say the allowance for the UK is £200 of goods from abroad. How will this magical border control travellers bringing in more than £200?

"After we leave, the UK, EU & Ireland will actually be forced to work together to create an actual soft/invisible border. Something they have not tried to do yet because of entrenched political red lines. Maybe it will be the first one in the world, maybe it will take a few years to get sorted, but it is not rocket science."
They already did this. It's called GFA. What do you think was like before GFA. Are you even old enough to remember?
I've set out an option for Leave. Where's the harm to Brexit? None. Grow up.

I've set out an option for Leave. Where's the harm to Brexit? None. Grow up

That is a very convincing argument.

That is a very convincing argument

Do you know what Red and Green channels are? Do you remember them when coming through customs at Dover?

How would you control what comes in, allowances etc between the EU and the UK border?

A member state would have to bring a complaint against the UK, which they could deal with if and when that happens.

Which is, y’know, an absolutely brilliant position to be in when trying to negotiate trade deals with other countries.

Who would want to do business with a country that refuses to play by any international rules?

This thread is so depressing.

Can I ask though why on earth are people suggesting that we(ROI) have to once again to work with the UK on a soft border due to a mess that the UK has created?

Why are the irish expected to clean up your mess or just put up and shut up.

Absolute bollocks.

But @newstart1337 , you have said nothing concrete. Just wishing that people do things without specifics but the way you want. No mollycoddling of sensitivities- this would work and you haven't come up with a workable alternative. So yes, grow up.

Why are the irish expected to clean up your mess or just put up and shut up. Absolute bollocks

It is indeed, but those supporting this Brexit chaos are only experts in looking up their own arses. Nobody else is even noticed.

S1naidSucks

I’ll personally blame each and every brexiteer for the first person to die in a return of the troubles

You would be better off blaming the person that killed them.

You would be better off blaming the person that killed them

Blame is not a binary thing.

chomalungma

Blame is not a binary thing.

Maybe not, but if you are going down the 'not binary' route there are many layers of blame before you get to the person in the voting booth.

But the main blame lies with the person that killed as there are still many different routes before you get to killing.

The blame for any trouble in N.I after Brexit falls at the feet of the People both sides of the border who love nothing more than a reason to get the semtex out again. Having lived in N.I (youngest son born there) i love the place And i know the majority dont want to go back to the days of the troubles but some would love the chance to go back and nothing will change that other than the majority refusing to hide the trouble makers and murderers

UK ancestors surely share some part of the blame for going over to Ireland and creating problems a few centuries ago. Germany and Japan as countries have to deal with the legacy of previous generations... sticking in the EU until someone comes up with the technological solution that people in NI are happy with is not that big a deal.

I do wonder what people will find to talk / argue about when it's all done and dusted

Return of the 'troubles'
Break up of the UK
Lorry car park on M20
Empty supermarket shelves
£1 being worth 75 Euro cents
Fishing area incursions
Rising interest rates
Falling house prices
Plummeting wages
80-hour weeks
Erosion of holiday pay
Less security for agency, fixed term and part time workers
Huge payouts for bankers with the removal of the bankers' bonus cap
Difficulty in getting mortgages
The US "special relationship" taking us into war and their terrible trade deal offers
A rapidly widening gap between super rich and everyone else
Power cuts
Medicine shortages
Civil unrest

I think we might be able to find something to discuss...

The republic of ireland should not pay or help towards a border that they dont want or didnt create, they are happy in the EU and if it werent for Arlene Fosters very bigoted and hate filled party we would have prob have got a deal under Teresa May

this would work and you haven't come up with a workable alternative

I have never said it wouldn't work but the consequences of starting to separate NI from the rest of the UK without a border referendum is why I am against doing so.

I dont see any reason why a soft border wouldn't work. If a small number of checks need to take place, then they can take place away from the border.

I just find the idea ludicrous that Tesco (for example) would start mass imports of chlorinated chicken from America through NI, ROI and then into France and the only way to stop this is hundreds of police/army checks all along the border.

Would smuggling take place, of course but only a tiny fraction of the millions of shipping containers arriving in European ports currently get inspected, do you think there is no smuggling already?

Anyone who is interested in history is well aware that the Brits are not that great at borders. Usual modus operandi is to just draw a line on a map, fuck off back home to blighty and then tut tut at the savages for the ensuing civil wars. Frankly, HMG can't be trusted. The EU (including RoI) need a backstop to ensure international border laws and treaties are upheld. Brexiteers don't get to decide what an international border is. There are rules, you can't just not have a border.

It is shameful and despicable what people in NI are being forced to contemplate. They have worked hard to rebuild over the last two decades. If Brexit removes all those foundations for peace, the world will hold the UK morally responsible. Brexit has made a laughing stock of the UK abroad. Reigniting the troubles will do nothing to help uk plc. Brexiteers may have no respect for Ireland, north or south but many other countries do. Protect the GFA. I don't care if the backstop is NI or UK wide (I'm assuming Ni backstop is easier as most Brexiteers don't give two fucks about Ni, the only care about England)but we need the backstop for the sake of the people of NI.

In what way is NI that does not have the same civil rights as the rest of the UK a key part of the UK such that can never be given separate status?
No Deal Brexit will cause actual chaos and violence in NI and may well lead to the (re)unification of Ireland. In what way is that better than a NI only backstop fudge that will save the GFA and show the world that we do respect our international treaty obligations.
This is the proverbial "IT"? What have you got that is better unless it is Remain?

I have never said it wouldn't work but the consequences of starting to separate NI from the rest of the UK without a border referendum is why I am against doing so

Indeed - it is massive implication when it comes to separating NI from the rest of the UK AND it's also massive implications when it comes to separating NI from Ireland when it comes to regulations, borders etc.

Which do you want? NI in a special economic zone where the single market and customs union still operates until a technical solution comes along AND an orderly Brexit where the rest of the UK gets to do all the sovereignty things it wants to do. Which NI can join when a technological solution is found.
OR
Fucking mayhem.

Your choice @newstart1337 . You have to choose or come up with something better by 31 October 2019.

The border referendum is already in GFA for fuck's sake. This isn't some new Johnson idea.

I doubt the DUP will be happy whatever the outcome.

That’s a teeny tiny silver lining to a terrible outcome of this situation.

No op I won’t be writing to my mp. I live in an area, where a monkey in a suit would get the Tory vote. Come to think of it, I live in a country like that right now.

@bellinisurge We did have a deal arranged but MPs wouldn't accept it. I cant see any reason why your suggestion has a snowballs chance in hell of being agreed by MPs. So unless the EU start negotiations again we have to leave without one.

I dont believe it will be Fucking mayhem, but I do imagine every little thing that happens for the next five years will be blamed on Brexit. On the whole most Brits are pretty resilient and we will be fine.