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AIBU?

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Original poster

Was this rape?

148 replies

OoohMasala · 08/08/2019 23:53

Referring to my ex.

I was half asleep. He pushed up behind me. I said no I'm not in the mood. He still continued to put his penis half way inside me. I moved away. He did it again and said 'come on we can just have a quickie'. I pulled away and said no, I don't want to. He continued to pester. Put his hands in my pants and we ended up having sex. I just went along with it. For reference, he was emotionally abusive and I was scared of him.

Weirdly, I forgot about this incident and only just remembered it and it's making me feel a bit sick when I look back at it.

Rape seems too strong a word. But I only left him a few months ago, still not over the abuse and very confused...

OP posts:
jellycatspyjamas · 09/08/2019 08:46

No, it’s not rape. It’s assault and abuse and he’s a nasty person but unless you were very scared/scarred by what happened then ‘rape’ is too strong of a word!

Sorry since when does rape depend on the emotional reaction of the person being raped? Where does that leave people who don’t have an immediate emotional reaction to what happened, who are so used to being abused they don’t react or who have been groomed into an abusive relationship where sex is used to coerce and control.

So much misinformation amongst women on this thread as to what constitutes rape.

InsertFunnyUsername · 09/08/2019 08:52

So for it to be real rape, not only does the victim have to scream and fight throughout the whole thing, they now have to have felt very scared. Not just a little bit.

Jesus, there seem to be many rules you have too follow when being raped. Vulnerable women will be reading this ffs. I'm off to find a brick wall.

jellycatspyjamas · 09/08/2019 08:52

I’m not saying that what you went through wasn’t horrible- it was! But I don’t think it was the same sheer terror, fear for life and physical pain I did! So using the exact same word for it seems ridiculous to me!

I’m sorry for your experience and can understand why you think it’s ridiculous to call them the same thing, but it’s not.

The experience of being physically attacked and raped is awful, so is being raped by someone you’re allegedly in a trusting partner relationship with, so is being groomed to have sex with someone you wouldn’t freely chose to.

Trauma is trauma, I’ve worked with people who 20 years after the fact realise the abusive nature of a previous relationship, the feelings they go through and the trauma the re-experience are horrific. I’d struggle to deny them naming their experience as rape just because someone experienced a more physically violent attack.

HattieRabbit · 09/08/2019 08:58

🤔 what I went through ... and what the women/girls I went to therapy with afterwards went through WAS NOT the same as somebody ‘having sex they didn’t 💯 want with their partner’ it’s just not!

In every other aspect you get levels of intensity.

Assault - Agrivated assault
Manslaughter- Murder

Just look at the legal system and they use different terms to express levels of severity. As a 15 year old attacked so brutally I was left in hospital. Fearing for my life, what I went through was NOT the same as this! IT JUST WASNT!

I don’t actually care whether you call this rape and change what happened to me to ‘Agrivated Rape’ but I’m sorry OP, me and you did not experience the same thing and it feels to me like calling what happened to you (although VERY VERY wrong) rape, dilutes the experience I went through.

I’m not terrible for saying that! Or for feeling it! They’re both wrong but they are not the same thing! There HAS to be a level of differentiation!

herculepoirot2 · 09/08/2019 09:01

No, it’s not rape. It’s assault and abuse and he’s a nasty person but unless you were very scared/scarred by what happened then ‘rape’ is too strong of a word!

That’s not the definition. Neither - and apologies to the people in the thread who have experienced this and think they were raped - is sex when you don’t really feel like going along with it but you do. Rape is penetration when there is no reasonable belief that the other person consented. The crime requires mens rea. It isn’t enough for the ‘victim’ to say they didn’t want sex. It has to be reasonably clear to the other person that they are not consenting. Fear is irrelevant. Scarring is irrelevant.

HattieRabbit · 09/08/2019 09:03

@jellycatspyjamas

I’m trying really hard not to ‘nullify’ what the OP has gone through as I do think it’s wrong and horrible.

But why is rape one of the few type of criminal activity that just seems to have one blanket word for it? Why can’t there be an extra term for those who are brutally beaten. I wasn’t just raped ... I was also beaten, I was also groomed, I also had my virginity taken. I don’t understand why non of those things are acknowledged and instead it’s just ‘raped’ - the same as somebody who wasn’t sure they wanted to have sex with their partner.

Both are very wrong but they really aren’t the exact same. I’m not trying to say that one is ok and one isn’t. BOTH are wrong. But they’re not the exact same experience.

herculepoirot2 · 09/08/2019 09:08

I don’t understand why non of those things are acknowledged and instead it’s just ‘raped’ - the same as somebody who wasn’t sure they wanted to have sex with their partner.

Rape is the crime of penetrating someone who isn’t consenting, not someone who isn’t sure. The OP didn’t consent and he penetrated her without her knowledge; she said so.

What happened to you sounds appalling, but it is no more of a rape. Legally it is the same crime because it is the same crime. However, there are separate charges of battery and grooming that can be brought to bear.

It is not relevant whether someone has had sex before.

InsertFunnyUsername · 09/08/2019 09:13

I don't agree with the manslaughter v murder argument either, you can't rape someone by accident the same way you can unintentionally murder someone (I'm thinking RTA)

Sorry to be graphic but if I were to murder 2 people. One quick and dies instantly, the other more prolonged and painful. Both have been murdered.

InsertFunnyUsername · 09/08/2019 09:16

I feel like calling it rape has to be black and white, otherwise it leaves room for peoples views on what they consider rape and as seen on this thread can differentiate depending on our own experiences.

Penetrating without consent = Rape.

MissB83 · 09/08/2019 09:17

@herculepoirot2 I think you need to be careful with the distinction you are drawing there. To my mind if you have made it clear verbally that you don't want sex but you stop physically fighting it because you feel threatened what might happen if you don't then actually that is still rape. "Going along with it" can embrace a fairly wide range of scenarios from the benign to the violent. This is why rape is a difficult crime to prove and convict.

GruciusMalfoy · 09/08/2019 09:17

You said no repeatedly, you pulled away. You only stopped actively objecting because you were afraid of the repercussions. In no way could any sensible person think this equates to you consent. This is what rape can look like in an abusive relationship, and I think it's disgraceful that it isn't more recognised.

I'm so sorry OP, you went through terrible times with him by the sounds of your posts.

herculepoirot2 · 09/08/2019 09:20

MissB83

I am being careful. Going along with it is not meant to imply a lack of active resistance once you have already said no. No means no. But it is also true that people do sometimes change their minds. In my opinion, a reasonable belief in consent might well be created by a person saying, “No; I don’t feel like it”, the other person saying, “Oh go on,” and the first person sighing, turning over and taking their knickers off. That isn’t rape as I or the law conceives it. That is an entirely different scenario to someone lying there saying no while someone puts their penis inside them, then staying still and silent until they are done.

Teddybear45 · 09/08/2019 09:23

Did he force you to have sex? You ‘going along with it’ after saying no doesn’t sound like it was rape.

MissB83 · 09/08/2019 09:23

@herculepoirot2 fine, but that isn't what your earlier post said. You started by saying that even if someone says no and the perpetrator carries on then it is not a rape???

I'm also sceptical about using the word "victim" in that way. This doesn't happen with any other type of crime. If you want to be accurate then it is fine to call someone a complainant before an allegation is proved. But I think calling someone a "victim" is unfair.

jellycatspyjamas · 09/08/2019 09:24

It’s like manslaughter and murder- we need that kind of differentiation. Both terrible, both wrong. But also different experiences.

I think suicide might be a better comparator. Some of the ways people take their own life are incredibly brutal, some are very violent, some are deeply traumatising for people who witness it. In other cases the trauma is much less apparent, witnesses have less physical/visual trauma to deal with but are still deeply traumatised.

Think of the difference between watching someone throw themselves in front of a train or shooting themselves compared to finding someone who has taken an overdose. We wouldn’t deny either of those people their feelings of sadness, grief, anger, anxiety. We wouldn’t say either person was t traumatised by what happened but we do recognise the impact might be felt differently. We still call it all suicide, because that what we call it when someone takes their own life by whatever means.

How we understand rape is the same.

herculepoirot2 · 09/08/2019 09:27

You started by saying that even if someone says no and the perpetrator carries on then it is not a rape???

That is not my understanding of what I said.

And ‘victim’ isn’t unfair. It’s implying only that a person might claim to be a victim of rape when what happened to them doesn’t meet the legal definition. Sorry if you don’t like that but it’s fact.

jellycatspyjamas · 09/08/2019 09:29

an extra term for those who are brutally beaten. I wasn’t just raped ... I was also beaten, I was also groomed

Beating is a separate crime to rape, grooming is a separate offence to rape and the law recognises those offences. Your assailant could be charged with any number of offences including rape, sexual assault, grooming, assault, actual bodily harm, trafficking (if he moved you from one location to another) etc etc. Not just one offence of rape.

MissB83 · 09/08/2019 09:30

@herculepoirot2 no, that is not right. A complainant alleges a crime. A victim is at the end of a proven crime. "Victim" is meaningless and actually quite offensive.

herculepoirot2 · 09/08/2019 09:31

MissB83

We will have to agree to disagree. 🤷🏻‍♀️

MissB83 · 09/08/2019 09:32

@herculepoirot2 absolutely, it's just that what I'm saying is the actual law (in the UK anyway).

Doyoumind · 09/08/2019 09:32

I had something similar with my (also abusive) ex. I did tell him I felt violated afterwards. It happened more than once. By definition it's rape but it's not helpful for me personally to think of it that way. I would rather just forget it.

herculepoirot2 · 09/08/2019 09:34

MissB83

I am not attempting to use the word victim in its legal or technical sense. I am using it in its commonly understood sense - a victim as a person against whom a crime has been perpetrated. Obviously that isn’t legally the case pre-trial. In terms of objective fact, however, they either are or are not a victim of an act that broke the law. Proving it is irrelevant to that. However, as you well know, that has nothing to do with the point I am making, which is that some people believe a crime has been perpetrated against them when no such thing has taken place.

HattieRabbit · 09/08/2019 09:35

@InsertFunnyUsername

-A partner pestering in bed may not perceive what they’re doing as rape. There can be mixed signals and false senses of security and although they commit the act, it’s not hard to believe that at the time they didn’t consciously perceive it as ‘rape’!
(Manslaughter)

  • A man crouched behind a bush in a dark park waiting for a young girl to come along, with the sole intention of raping/beating her KNOWS exactly what he’s doing. It’s premeditated and completely intentional (murder)

Tell me again how the analogy makes no sense?

herculepoirot2 · 09/08/2019 09:38

A partner pestering in bed may not perceive what they’re doing as rape. There can be mixed signals and false senses of security and although they commit the act, it’s not hard to believe that at the time they didn’t consciously perceive it as ‘rape’!
(Manslaughter)

Their perception of whether it is ‘rape’ is irrelevant. Lots of rapists don’t think they are rapists. The only relevant factor is whether their belief in consent existed (and was reasonable). They can call it whatever they want. Doesn’t change it.

herculepoirot2 · 09/08/2019 09:45

Whereas, of course, with murder and manslaughter the intention is paramount. So yes, I see what you mean.