Paying Keep

[Lee17]

Hi All,
My 16 yr old daughter has left school is earning now. She is on an Apprenticeship, which starts officially in September. She is earning about £130 a week at the minute, which may well go up if she does more hours. Now, I think it is reasonable for her to pay a little towards her keep. At the moment we are encouraging her to save half, which she is doing but when we mentioned keep she threw a wobbly. Is it reasonable to ask her to pay say £25 a week, then save half of the rest and have the other half to spend as she pleases? My husband and I were brought up to pay keep, many, many years ago! And back then in the early 80s, he was paying about £20 and I was about £15. Any advice please? I think they need to appreciate how long it takes to earn what they intend to spend and to evaluate the cost and if it is worth it. We pay for everything for her at the minute, apart from extra clothes and makeup. Thanks. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. Keep or no Keep?

Keep, absolutely. For all those mentioning child benefit etc you're missing the point in my opinion. I had a part time job from the day of my 16th Birthday all through GCSEs and A Levels and had to pay my parents 20% of my pay from day 1. It was never actually for my "keep" - it was to teach me that you don't get to spend your whole pay packet when you're a proper grown up! I moaned like hell about it. My mum would often slip me a tenner when I was going out or treat me to a new top or whatever, it certainly wasn't spend on my food or heating. But as an actual grown now up I appreciate the sentiment and the lesson and absolutely will be doing the same with my kids. I think you sound like a great, responsible parent OP who wants to teach her daughter to be ready for the big wide world in which you don't get to fritter your earning solely on yourself. Good for you. And for her in the long run.

my job is to cover dd while she is still in school and studying. For an apprenticeship, I would charge rent. Probably 30% of her base earnings.

I intend to do a percentage as then can do same for all kids. I'm thinking I'll put it on one side and when they leave home give it to them to buy essentials. Teach them hopefully the value of money. I'll also encourage them to save.

I love when people talk about money from yester-year as though it has any bearing on today's money.

For example, the OP's daughter earns £130 a week. Ten years prior that same amount of money had the equivalent buying power as £170.39.

For the previous decades:

1998: £224.72
1988: £342.43

1978: £732.64 (the average weekly wage in the 70s was £34 today that would be the same as £280.17)

1968: £2,214.79
1958: £2,983.55

In the 1970's you could get the following for £1:
litre of petrol 34p
pint of beer 20p
pack of 20 cigarettes 20p
loaf of bread 9p
Newspaper 10p
Tin of Heinz baked beans 7p

All that for £1! Today you can't even get a decent loaf of bread for a pound.

I moved out at 18 and I was able to do this early and budget because my mum charged me keep, even out of my first job Which was only 30 quid a week job. She wanted Only 40 quid a month, but the principle is to make them realise your pay isn’t all yours. She gave it back to me in a lump sum when I moved out so I had nearly two thousand which I put in an isa. You don’t have o give it back if u need the money yourself but 100 percent you need to take it

YANBU I think it's a good lesson for her in realising that it's a wage, not pocket money. Its about learning the value of money, not the money per se.

When I started my first job I was quaking waiting to hear what my mother would ask me for towards my keep. I was over the moon that she only asked me if I thought half was reasonable. We were badly off & if more had been asked for I'd have handed it over. As it was every month on pay day I also brought her home a bunch of flowers & a box of chocolates. In my 60's now & can't help noticing that it's changed days.
I was good at stretching the money I had though (I'd excellent teachers in my parents) and had a mortgage on my first house before I was 20.

If you are getting child benefit for her, then I don’t think it would be fair to ask for keep too- as she must be considered to be in full time training/education and as such that could be considered to be similar to doing a levels.

DH and I lived with his parents for 12 months while we saved for our house, both apprentices. I was earning £450 a month and he was earning around £600.

Between us we paid £150 a month "keep" to his parents.

I think as soon as you start earning a wage and are no longer in full time education then you pay keep.

She has chosen a different route - albeit she hasn't got the academic ability to do A Levels, but also she hasn't got the attitude or determination either! She always choses the route of least resistance, which is fine, and she is doing really well to get an Apprenticeship and we have told her we are very proud of her. But she has it in her head that because she is under 18, she is still our responsibility

She is. Education or apprenticeship up to Age 18 is now the done thing. You are punishing her, essentially, for not being like her sister. Stop it. She's doing an Apprenticeship, not hauling in big bucks, and under 18.

She may never forgive you for charging her at her age, and I can't say I'd blame her. She is trying to better herself, just in a different way than her sister, and she is still essentially in Education and underage. Reevaluate at 18 if you must, but fuck, be more supportive!

OP it depends on how much you need the money does she eat alot of food.
Tell her to buy her own snacks.

My 16 year old just started a pt job I told her for each 50 to save 10 towards a school trip she wants to go on.
If she can't save it she won't be going.

She message me today to bring her home treats I just text back no and told her she can buy them from her own money.
When the weekly shop is eaten more food will be bought.
I don't ask her for keep just to buy her own treats and if she needs money for going out she uses her own.

For everyone saying the OP gets child benefit - no she won't - it stops along with tax credits when the child starts an apprenticeship.

Very contentious subject on mn.

Personally I think yes someone who is in a full time paid role SHOULD be at least paying something towards what their costs are. They don't live for free!

Some on mn say they don't charge keep because they don't need the money, but that's not the only reason for them to be paying keep in the first place.

They are using food, heat, light, water, cleaning products etc

I think it's giving them an unrealistic experience of life if they think that they don't owe someone for the benefit of those things.

Quite honestly I've noticed the difference in real life between those who did pay keep and those who didn't and those who didn't and those who didn't - even now in our 40's and 50's - are less responsible with money, feel more "hard done by" if they can't buy a luxury item, are more likely to expect others to pick up their tab generally.

I know I'll now get mners coming on saying "I didn't pay keep/charge my kids keep and I'm/they're not like that"

Well for one thing people don't always recognise this behaviour in themselves/their kids.

For another we've only their word for it here.

Plus I'm not necessarily saying EVERYONE is like that but that's definitely what I have noticed in real life.

My dd is 18 and also left school at 16 to work in an apprenticeship. She pays 1/3 of her take home pay in keep which frankly doesn't even cover all her costs and definitely doesn't cover the losses from our household budget due to her leaving school then.

Wasn't her fault at all school were being arses over something and she was miserable but the fact is her leaving school impacted our household finances AND she does not eat fresh air!

Re her attitude - and I've had similar discussions with dd initially not easy! But with rights come responsibilities!

You don't get to only be an adult when it suits you! BUT that does cut both ways, you can't tell her if or how much to save either it's her money. I have recommended to dd that she save, she had originally planned to save for driving lessons, but she hasn't done it, has frittered it away (her money was a good wack!) and is now pissed off all her friends have passed/are passing their driving lessons - most have paid for themselves - and she's not even started learning! But she only has herself to blame.

Discussions weren't too difficult here as I'd been honest with dd about our income and outgoings from high school age (not planned to do it that early on my part, but necessary to address some shit stirring from my ex who was giving it "I pay your mum loads of cm if you want X she can pay for it" so I was showing her that what he paid in cm - which he didn't even pay every month! In comparison to what it cost to run our home and some discussion on what her costs alone were was a drop in the ocean!). So dd always knew what our costs were roughly.

A wee reminder was needed but she couldn't really argue against what I was saying given the facts.

I simply can't afford to support her without her paying some keep.

Also my parents paid keep and we all paid keep too (though I left home soon as I could, not for this reason but it wasn't a happy home in many other ways) and the majority of my friends who worked full time while living at home also paid keep. There were a few who didn't and as I've said their attitudes left a lot up be desired and they also struggled adjusting to the costs of running a home when they did get a place of their own.

"Not as an apprentice, no. You'll still be getting child benefit for her."

A - only unpaid apprenticeships

C- child benefit is a pretty small amount! It certainly doesn't even cover 1/2 my dds food costs! Let alone anything else!

Same applies with tax credits too.

Certainly I lost mine when dd took up her apprenticeship.

Question particularly to those saying they wouldn't charge keep - what percentage of your income do you have left over after you've paid all your essential bills? I've certainly never had 1/3 left! FAR LESS 1/2!!

YABU. 16 is so young still. An apprenticeship is the equivalent of studying so I think it's a bit mean of you to ask her to pay to live in her own house. By all means you should encourage her to save.

18 for my two for keep

@EileenAlanna

If you're in your 60s now then that means you were most likely working in the late 60s to early 70s. I'm not surprised if you were able to get a mortgage before you were 20, the average cost of a house in 1970 was around £3000 while the average salary was around £2700-£3200. Today the average wage is around £29k while average house prices are around £229,431.

The gap between salaries and the cost of housing and living has widened significantly in the last 50 or so years. It is incredibly frustrating for young people to hear older people pipe on how they had their own home, were married and had 5 children by the time they were 30 etc. Buying a home, getting married and having children is expensive, hence people have to do those things later in life than they used to.

EileenAlanna are you seriously suggesting that your hard work, fiscal responsibility and outlook meant you got your first house at age 20, in the 60s/70s?

I'm not that young but in behalf of all the hard working, responsible grads I work with in my department.. get a grip. I work with plenty of extremely dedicated, talented grads earning pittance for the educational level our scheme requires, working antisocial hours while paying back terrifying levels of debt, with no hope of owning homes or supporting a family any time on the next couple of decades... Despite their talents, dedication and professional jobs.

Honestly, the best grad I have reporting into me right now (essentially an assistant to an operations manager role, very varied, requires you to constantly react to urgent critical situations under pressure) is a 22 year old masters grad on 28k a year living with his parents... His commute is 90 minutes on 2 trains. Door to door, 2hrs. Try doing that for years with very little room for salary increases anytime soon on top of us expecting him to work 8-8pm on "Normal" days.

He could work for 200 years and never have the economic advantages you had, and me to a lesser degree!

Thanks everyone. Well, she will be earning at least £130 a week and working at a salon just down the road, so no expenses there. I pack her dinner for her. We will pay her fare to get to College. Child benefit will stop 5th September, as soon as she goes to College because she is on an Apprenticeship scheme and therefore earning. I sorted all of that out yesterday; there seems to be a bit of confusion about that. But the child benefit will categorically end automatically. There are other schemes where it stays, for example NVQs, but as she will be actually earning some money, at least £3.90 an hour, the Government will stop the benefit. Of course they would! We also pay her phone and as I said, all of her other requirements except clothes now and makeup. I think that taking some Keep is the way to go but to also put some of that aside as an extra little 'egg' for her that will reward her some point in the future and be a nice surprise for her. Thanks.

10 percent. Then it's always fair, no matter how much she earns. Also fair to any other siblings.

Oh and to INeedAFlerken; I don't appreciate your tone and your foul language. How dare you insinuate I am not a supportive parent. You know nothing of our story, our circumstances or our financial status. My two daughters mean the world to me, but they are totally different in character and ability. It is only through being totally supportive emotionally and financially that either of our two beautiful daughters have been helped to achieve what they have. I am immensely proud of both of them. I was merely pointing out that my youngest hasn't got the ability to study for A Levels or the passion or actually even the 'want' to, which is WHY she is doing an Apprenticeship as it is the BEST route for her and what SHE has chosen to do; she has chosen the Salon and the College she wants, not what we want. In fact there were much easier routes, but this is for HER and so we applaud her for following her wishes. It would have been far worse if we had pushed and pushed her to do what her sister has; she is a different person. We have never put pressure on either of them to 'achieve' what they cannot or to give them false hope; only to follow their dreams with us supporting the best path for them AFTER lots of discussion with them and their teachers etc. Grrrrrr!!!!!

So she will earn £130, she saves half and you want her to give you £25. Doesn't leave her much if she is expected to buy her own clothes/phone etc. Poor kid.

are you seriously suggesting that your hard work, fiscal responsibility and outlook meant you got your first house at age 20, in the 60s/70s?

I'm not surprised if you were able to get a mortgage before you were 20, the average cost of a house in 1970 was around £3000 while the average salary was around £2700-£3200.

Yes, those were the reasons I was able to get a mortgage. The average wages where I lived (Belfast) were much lower - my first job paid less than £800 per year even though it was considered well paid - and my 2 bed terrace house cost a little under £3k, so the same house prices but vastly lower wages.

My generation didn't live some life of Reilly, not where I came from with grinding, historical poverty so no, I'd none of these "economic advantages" you seem to assume everyone who bought a house before you had.

Hi, no Child Benefit starts once the Apprenticeship starts. But that isn't really the issue; I just think that you need to appreciate how long it takes to earn what you want to spend. I always paid keep, so did my husband. But as many have pointed out that was a long time ago. But it was still relevant and in proportion to today's fiscal values. Thanks.

MissingDietCoke; thanks for your lovely comments. And yes, Child Benefit will deffo stop as she will be earning. The Government doesn't miss a trick!

Sorry but I do think it’s unfair given her sibling didn’t pay keep at that age. Otherwise, I would have agreed with you.