AIBU to think a lot of people don't really think of children as people?

[weaningwoes]

So I am a softie and I know it. But so many threads on here have people (who are probably fine people and lovely parents in many ways) advocating such extreme 'briskness' with very young children who are struggling with their feelings that it borders on harshness to me.

Problems with sleeping, giving up bottles/dummies, 'tantrums' (or 'being overwhelmed by emotions' depending on how you feel about that word!), so often the solution seems to be "make them safe and then ignore". There's this fanatical devotion to the idea that "three nights of hell and then that was that" is a good enough outcome to justify what would amount to neglect if it was done to any other group of dependent, vulnerable person, say frail elderly or someone with developmental issues in a care home, and bloody cruel and cold at least if directed to, say, a partner who was crying for some reason.

It feels like a lot of people think their compassion for their children should just stop at 1 minute past bedtime, or the second their feelings or behaviour ceases to be convenient.

I know I sound a judgy bitch, and lots of people will be laughing at me for being so wet. But surely children are real people, even from babies, and there's no reason to imagine they feel what they feel any less truly than we adults do - just that they have far fewer tools to manage and rationalise those feelings!

I don't remember being a toddler but I do remember being a teenager and a small child - how my feelings would take me over and how utterly devastating it was to feel so much and be dismissed, overridden and ignored, even ridiculed for those feelings by adults I loved. Sure, they were right in the scheme of things that I needn't be as upset/passionate about x y z thing, but my feelings were nonetheless genuine. And they hurt!

Surely one doesn't have to agree with someone's assessment of a situation to sympathise with the strength of their emotions about it, especially when it's somebody dependent and helpless, who you love?

Prepared to be told IABVVVU.

@NeurotrashWarrior

It's just being respectful; I'll never understand this thing about kids and pandering when it comes to food choices.

I get what you mean (besides the fact that some kids will whinge about anything healthy and you can't really pander to that) but I think the waters get muddy when the issues around food are more behavioural than about the actual food. My SS has always been like this - he's used to a lot of attention in general and basically seems to want you to egg him on between every mouthful and praise him for finishing even if it's his favourite food or a treat. He will kick up a fuss over things he has eaten hundreds of times if you don't, as well as things he has specifically requested, because it's nothing to do with the food, he's just used to having attention when he eats.

After years of having to say "well done" or "just a couple more mouthfuls for me please" for literally about an hour between every bite, we just eventually decided you know what, you're not eating for my benefit, you're eating for yours. You're not doing me a favour by stopping yourself from being hungry, it's your choice if you want to eat or not, but I'm not going to sit and pick things out of your food that I've seen you eat hundreds of times or cook you something else in those circumstances.

It's a boy who cried wolf thing, there's a fine line between an actual food aversion vs just being attention seeking and a lot of kids do misbehave around food because they know it will get a reaction because their parents are so bloody desperate for them to just eat something.

My dd was a nightmare until she was in her own room. Ive always done roughly the same routine and most nights we bath together for quite a while with music bubbles and books ect. Or I wear her out with toys ect then milk and book. Once she’s rubbing her eyes it’s rabbit and cot, she rolls around until she falls asleep. She was difficult before 6 months!

I always thought if babies are crying it’s for a valid reason like they’re too cold/hot/thirsty/in pain with teeth... I think leaving to cry is risky and doesn’t always pay off, I always wanted to nip it in the bud. So I rush in and work out what the problem was (if I could) I admit when you’re half asleep that’s tricky and I’ve done everything and missed the thing she means. So some nights are tricky.

I just don’t massively see how leaving to cry does work, I know they cry themselves to sleep but you might have missed the reason. Might end up having pooed and you’ve got awful nappy rash on your hands 🤷🏼‍♀️

If you mean you do everything and then leave to cry, if I’ve covers my bases dd then would just go to sleep. I literally believe babies cry for a valid reason. Especially young babies, like ones who haven’t gone through separation anxiety, I do think it can be more emotional reasons as toddlers.

@Waterloosunsets what about the parents suffering from mental health problems due to sleep deprivation? Do you have any feelings for them?

Okay just seen the topic hasn’t massively moved on lol

Leaving a baby to cry is unnatural and in my opinion, a cruelty. Please read www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/moral-landscapes/201112/dangers-crying-it-out

I agree with you OP. I also don't like it when children aren't given space in public, for instance, in the supermarket. I know most people disagree with me and I don't let my children run riot but I expect them to be able to just walk around with me and have other adults be able to look where they're going and not plough them over. I also don't think small children should be made to stand for healthy adults on public transport but I know that's unpopular too.

Leaving a baby to cry is unnatural and in my opinion, a cruelty.

For extended periods of time and properly crying I agree.

However a tired whinge while sleep training helps both parents and baby in the long term.

A lot of posters are understating the impact on your mental health following sleep deprivation. I'm not talking one wake up per night, more 3-4 long wake ups and then having to work ft.

53rdway is totally right, you can try as much as you like with sleep training some just won’t.
For me listening to the hours of crying and the knock on effect of the daytime routine being ruined and dealing with a very overtired child whilst having had no sleep was far worse than the sleep deprivation I was trying to cure.

Op yanbu

I think leaving to cry for long periods is cruel but a tired whinge is different. I mostly do things at roughly set times and I’ve ended up with a happy dd. Can go days without her crying at all. Although she’s started having tantrums if toys are taken. Off or if she’s removed from the swings 😂🙈 so not sure how to tackle that, didn’t think she’d be like that at 8months lol

I've never understood making children stand for healthy adults on public transport either. I don't even get the respect your elders mantra, there are plenty of shit adults.

Health professionals recommended sleep training to me!

34 hours isn't full time in most jobs. I was doing 50+. You really have no idea.

As for this line However, I choose to put my child's needs above my own, what a vile judgemental statement to make.
You imply that by sleep training my child I haven't prioritised them. I would argue that it was the best thing I did for our whole family.

I think some of you have no experience of actual sleep training and assume people leave babies screaming. That's not how it works.

Have some compassion and think about what you are posting.

It used to be a rule on buses that kids got reduced cost tickets and in return they had to stand for adults. That is where it comes from.

Anyone who always puts their child's wants above their own is being a mummy martyr

53rd I get a sense of competitive martyrdom-one must suffer in motherhood which to me is almost an internalised hatred.

AP attracts perfectionists. I was in lots of FB groups of that ilk and they were littered with broken women.

Now I can see that the AP persons I used to think were perfect just happen to have very Pollyanna-type personalities and guess what their children do too (genes)!

Where as I’m more of a crazed highly-strung wasp and the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. DD was never going to coo happily in a sling as she totally loathed being a baby.

I do blame it (perfectionism) for me getting PND which is why I am annoyed with it all.

I will add that I am extremely attached to DD, she still sleeps in our bed (we like it) and we are very affectionate together and adore each other. We also shout at each other 🙈 which I shouldn’t do.

Lots have people have commented re the sleep training thing. For perspective,my child woke up every 30 mins to 2 hours every night from about 4 months old to past 18 months. Only started "sleeping through" (more than 5 hours at a time) when she was nearly 2, only started going a whole night (8ish til around 5ish) since she was 2 and a bit, and that's her usual routine now. She just never needed much sleep it seems (and by the way for all those saying it is "cruel" to "allow" your child not to sleep she is and always has been developmentally fine despite minimal sleep - crawled at 6 mths, walked at 11 months, is top end of EYFS 30-55 mths scale for her verbal skills at 2.5, once I cracked her dairy allergy at 12 months had a pretty reasonable temperament if very input-hungry). She was breastfed and my partner wanted to sleep train her anyway after 6 months, so I was on my own with night wakings, all of them.

In the middle of her shittiest sleep spell, I went back to work full time in a new job, and my mother died suddenly and traumatically,leaving me as her executor - all in the same week. I KNOW about sleep deprivation and pressure and mental health struggles. I do. I am not pontificating from the luxurious position of having had an easy baby or a simple life or a supportive partner.

I know people do what they have to do and they do what they think is best for their whole families. So sometimes, for some people, sleep training of some sort may be a flat out necessity. I get that.

What I don't get is the need to deny or minimise what that means for the child, the desperation to suggest that it isn't really upsetting to cry for someone you love to come for you when you are small and helpless and for them not to come, and that because they do learn to stop crying eventually those emotions weren't "real", and trying to insist that what they did out if necessity was because it was the best thing for the child rather than the only compromise that could be struck under the circumstances.

I've just weaned my toddler for a variety of reasons, absolutely none of which I will pretend were her best interest - her best interest would be served by having the nutritional, immunological and psychological benefits of bf available to her for as long as possible inttil she voluntarily self weaned. I did it anyway because for one reason or another I felt I had to. But I don't try to pretend that just because she got used to it and it was the best thing overall that the nights she spent crying in my arms about it were just "trying it on" or "trying to manipulate me" or "trying to get her own way", nor that the outcome is "best for everyone". She really suffered. And I don't see that it is somehow pandering to recognise that suffering and support her through it, even while holding the line that this is what will happen. Same as with the dummy thing - you can say it is important for a 6yo to give up her dummy,sure, if that is what's necessary for various reasons. You can still support the child through any struggles they may have with that process rather than just shrug off their sadness as silly, and exhort them to "be a big girl", as if having feelings and being conflicted is somehow invalid or immature.

I'm not talking about giving children everything they want! Nowhere have I said that rules and boundaries are bad things to have. Just that we don't have to whack down a boundary and then stand on the other side of it, use the boundary to separate ourselves from our child's real feelings by pretending they don't exist or aren't real because they aren't rational or helpful feelings. And if we encourage them to express their feelings, whatever stage their expressive skills are at, then surely that's the basis for a fruitfully open and honest relationship as they grow up? As opposed to effectively telling them "I don't want to hear it" if their feelings aren't "right"?

I tell my daughter no all the time; I swear some days it feel like it's all I bloody say! But it's never JUST no, just like it wouldn't be to an adult. There's a reason for no; and if it is making her miserable I will comfort her, because who else will if I won't? Yes the world is tough and they need to learn to live in it; but shouldn't they also learn that in a world that can be hard, disappointing and rule-bound, it is ok to trust some people to always have your back, to always care about your feelings, and to always provide a safe space for you to be less than strong when you need it? Isn't that what being a parent is, in the long run?

I always remember someone saying that small children had a lot of anguish as they cried so much . !
Anyway yanbu I see what you mean

I think the important thing is to remember children are individuals. What works for one won’t work for another.

If I tried to suggest 3 nights without 10 yo DD’s soft toy would break her of the habit, she would hit the roof. There is no need to do so, no matter what the Internet or society thinks. She took it to resi camp and far from being teased, her friends either had their own or wished they had been allowed to bring theirs. She had a meltdown when we had suggested she didn’t take it. We told her what the risks were and she decided it was worth it.

We will all deal with whatever consequences arise because of our parenting choices, we are all generally doing our best. I prefer to see DD as a little person and for us it seems to be working. My mum did it differently and we’ve all turned out ok too.

People my arse. They're tiny narcissistic whirlwinds of selfishness

Abso- fucking-lutely.

And the job of the parent is to take the child from that state to compassionate, caring adults.

Find your own path. Every DC is different.

@jennymanara - but the thing is, over and above most of my wants I want my DD to be a happy well adjusted human being. It's not about privileging her wants over mine, it's about investing in a longer term goal. And about respecting her as a person, and realising that I have a responsibility to put her first as (a) I made a conscious decision to bring her into the life I have, and if I couldn't accommodate her fairly straightforward needs for comfort and care I shouldn't have done so and (b) she is entirely helpless and in my power, she has no other option, she can't go with another provider if she doesn't like what I'm giving her - I have complete power over her tiny life. Who will put her first if I don't? She isn't in a position to put herself first. And if I don't teach her through her life that her feelings, wants, opinions matter, she never will do. You could say, if like @Siameasy you want to pathologise attachment parenting in the west (never mind it is in large part the absolute norm in the majority of human history and cultures) that I am a "mummy martyr" - but tbh it has always been far easier for me emotionally to respond to her needs than to try and construct artificial divisions between her needs and mine, to act like I didn't choose to become a mother of a baby/little child but just had it somehow foisted on me, and need to undo this unwanted situation ASAP by making her behave like a well trained pet before she can even put on her own clothes.

I most definitely see him as a person, but it is part of my responsibility as a parent to help DS to be happy, confident and able to get himself to sleep. Also as he gets a bit older to realise that other people have needs and the world doesn't entirely revolve around him.

This. Teaching consideration for others is bloody hard work (partly because I model it in how I treat DD and expect her to treat me). Fwiw my opinion on sleep (that I don’t share irl unless asked) is that if your kid is still waking up 5+ times per night at 6 months you need to find a way to improve it, because (never mind you) they deserve a better night’s sleep. And beyond that, in much the same way that there is good and bad parenting in respect of food, language, social interactions, whatever else, there is also good and bad parenting in respect of sleep and discipline - resolutely not “mum knows best” or “ur bubz ur rulez”.

YABU. Children need to learn to get over inadequate feelings. Indulging these kinds of overreactions is a form of neglect in itself. Obviously some people take it too far, I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about realising the people simply cannot behave that way and the duty that parents have to teach children proper behaviour.

However, I choose to put my child's needs above my own, what a vile judgemental statement to make.

I agree. It is not selfishness to put your own needs ahead of your child's needs, in a lot of instances it is absolutely essential to put yourself first. If you're on a flight and it all starts going to shit and the oxygen masks drop, they tell you to fit your own mask before helping your child. That's because you are of no use to your child if you are withering away from lack of air, you get your own air supply in place so that you're strong enough to help your child. Parenting follows the same principles, emotionally and physically, you need to see to your own needs at times ahead of your child otherwise you're not going to be capable of giving them what they need.

Interesting

No attachment parenting is absolutely not the norm for human history. The norm is a baby being looked after by a variety of adults, not just the mother or father.
Similarly wet nursing is very common in many more traditional cultures. Even babies being breastfed by their mother are sometimes breastfed by other mothers.
The reality is most mothers who are into AP calm down with the second and subsequent children, because real full on AP is only possible if you have one child.