AIBU to think a lot of people don't really think of children as people?

[weaningwoes]

So I am a softie and I know it. But so many threads on here have people (who are probably fine people and lovely parents in many ways) advocating such extreme 'briskness' with very young children who are struggling with their feelings that it borders on harshness to me.

Problems with sleeping, giving up bottles/dummies, 'tantrums' (or 'being overwhelmed by emotions' depending on how you feel about that word!), so often the solution seems to be "make them safe and then ignore". There's this fanatical devotion to the idea that "three nights of hell and then that was that" is a good enough outcome to justify what would amount to neglect if it was done to any other group of dependent, vulnerable person, say frail elderly or someone with developmental issues in a care home, and bloody cruel and cold at least if directed to, say, a partner who was crying for some reason.

It feels like a lot of people think their compassion for their children should just stop at 1 minute past bedtime, or the second their feelings or behaviour ceases to be convenient.

I know I sound a judgy bitch, and lots of people will be laughing at me for being so wet. But surely children are real people, even from babies, and there's no reason to imagine they feel what they feel any less truly than we adults do - just that they have far fewer tools to manage and rationalise those feelings!

I don't remember being a toddler but I do remember being a teenager and a small child - how my feelings would take me over and how utterly devastating it was to feel so much and be dismissed, overridden and ignored, even ridiculed for those feelings by adults I loved. Sure, they were right in the scheme of things that I needn't be as upset/passionate about x y z thing, but my feelings were nonetheless genuine. And they hurt!

Surely one doesn't have to agree with someone's assessment of a situation to sympathise with the strength of their emotions about it, especially when it's somebody dependent and helpless, who you love?

Prepared to be told IABVVVU.

@bogglesgoggles

Wth is an "inadequate feeling"???

An example I'm thinking of which really stood out to me, just so people can see that I'm not talking about the fine distinctions between different types of discipline style but something far deeper. Recent thread about a toddler refusing to stay in their toddler bed at bedtime. One of the suggestions made was a poster who said when their toddler started climbing out of their cot, she cut a hole in their sleep sack, tied a rope through the hole and tied the rope to the bars of the cot so they couldn't climb out.

I was one of about 4 posters who said this was fucking shocking. Everyone else who even acknowledged the post seemed to think it fell under the heading of "different styles" and "sometimes you have to do what you have to do". I can think of no other situation where people would say it was acceptable to tie someone into their bed at night and leave them that way, no matter how much of a nuisance or even s danger they might be. But for small children this is apparently well within the realm of acceptability for many, just like shouting, smacking, confining to rooms as punishment for exhibiting emotion and all sorts else besides that you would never dream of doing to another adult or accept being done to you.

I find this thread genuinely upsetting.

I try everyday to put my children's emotional welfare at the forefront. I try and respect their wishes and treat them as I would wish to be treated. However, they still have mega tantrums, in the past I've let them cry at night whilst I've held their hand because they've been waking up and I've had to work and been on my knees, they're in childcare, I stopped breastfeeding at 8 months.

Does this mean they're doomed? Because the way that people on this thread are talking, it seems like they might.

Not everyone has the constitution that some of you do to breastfeed until 2, whilst also working and being able to deal with them waking 6 times a night - on top of whatever else you might have going on isn't your lives.

Well done to you all, looks like the rest of us are fucked.

I find this thread genuinely upsetting.

Don't let it get to you.

Today my 5yo and 8yo had unlimited screen time while my 10yo was out on the trampoline literally from 10am through to 6pm, he lay down and napped on it at one point, and the 2yo ate around five whole apples as she kept helping herself to the fruit bowl.

I've got a stinking head cold and felt like death warmed over so I did what I had to do in order to get through until bedtime.

Trust me, the vast majority of us are winging it and hoping we don't fuck our kids up too badly. Even the people who pretend to be perfect and judge other people for parenting in a different way, they may not realise it but they're winging it too.

@jennymanaraabsolutely agree with the community loss - the thing is,what communities did was allow women to focus on their small child. Nursing mothers were supported and helped and educated and prioritised, their older children if any cared for, their workload shifted as needed to allow for adequate bonding, feeding and sleep during the crucial first year. True enough it's bloody hard to AP in our set up where women are expected to manage all by themselves; but equally hard is constantly being told to ignore our instincts in the interests of am atomised, patriarchal, capitalist society, to put our babies down/in another room as much and as soon as possible, to "get our lives back", to "teach them who's boss", if all we want to do is hold them, feed them, nurture them and prioritise them - for that to be derided as "martyr motherhood" and to be effectively considered bovine and pathetic for thinking that mothering small children is something which does require and reward sacrifices, patience and compromise.

@weaningwoes I think you are thinking of a rose tinted view of what "natural mothering" looked like in traditional societies.
I do agree that that suggestion for a toddler is shocking though. And I would have said so if I had seen it.

Who will put her first if I don't? She isn't in a position to put herself first. And if I don't teach her through her life that her feelings, wants, opinions matter, she never will do.

All of this. I suffered feom being gaslit and having my feelings, wants and opinions sneered at. Swore blind I'd never do it to my kids.

Firm boundaries and respect for emotions are not mutually exclusive - I'm good with DS being upset at our rules, other kids being mean, us telling him off - they are all essential learning experiences. I'm not scared of him having big feelings, I just try to meet those feelings and help them to manage them coz whether I say they're overreactions or not won't change the fact he feels them. Better to learn to work through them healthily than push them down and have them ricochet out at some other time/person!

@screamer1

I'm sorry the thread upsets you but it does annoy me when any discussion about parenting, what might be good and what might be less so that goes beyond "all fed none dead", "we're all just doing our best", "your bubz your rules" gets pissed all over for "shaming" people who do differently.

I definitely don't live up to my own expectations of "perfect" motherhood, all the time or at all. There's been a LOT of telly in this house recently. I spend say too much time on my phone when I should be paying attention to her (do the same to my partner actually). I have sometimes shouted or snapped or not listened properly or reacted defensively because I was feeling bad about something. But I think it's ok to acknowledge that while that was the best I could do in that moment, it would have been better to do differently a X aspire to that. Surely? Surely it's ok to talk about what's ideal and aim for that? Without it being immediately assumed the underlying purpose is to shit on other people? And surely it's ok to question the underlying thought processes behind parenting approaches that make no sense to you, especially when they're so widespread? If not, no-one would ever have questioned smacking and it wouldn't now be seen by a good number if parents as A Bad Thing.

And no I am not saying stuff like - show them who is boss. I disagree with that. But I very strongly suspect that those mothers for whom AP works well have babies that adapt naturally to this style of mothering, and are in general easy babies. I too have seen the totally broken mothers in AP groups.
I used to believe a lot of shit such as - breastfeeding is easy and if it hurts you aren't doing it right. I now know that is bollocks.
There is a lot of research about what good parenting looks like and being sensitive to the needs of your child is a crucial aspect. A good mother is sensitive to the needs of her child and responds to them as much as she is able to.
But my issue with any theory of parenting such as AP is that when you have a series of rules, then sensitive mothering actually goes out the window. So yes a lot of babies are happy in a sling, but some are not and dislike being in any sling. Most babies like co sleeping, but some are actually happier in a cot in their own space. Babies are individuals and like all individuals they all like different things. You can say - a lot of babies like this so try it and see if it settles them. But what you actually need to do is find out what makes your individual baby happy. And balance that with your own needs as well.

THis seems to have become very focused on sleep training, but I think the OP was looking at a much bigger picture.
It strikes me so often that a lot of parents are locked in battle with their young children. It’s sort of a negative dialogue which becomes a cycle I think. Yes, we have to set boundaries and yes, we have to educate our children about what is acceptable and unacceptable within family life and life in general. But we are all on the same side: it’s not as if it’s parents versus children as sworn adversaries and their inconvenient behaviour is designed to ruin adult lives.
These ‘locked in battle’ exchanges generally involve an adult expecting a child to behave in an adult way and then having a go at them for not meeting this expectation. They also seem to involve a lack of empathy with the child and, as the OP said, the invalidation of the child’s emotions. If I was going to label it, I would say that it is emotionally disengaged parenting (is that a thing?)
I can’t be the only parent who isn’t on an even emotional keel if not emotionally engaged with their offspring? I can’t be whole if I’m not in tune with them, how they feel and what they need (as opposed to want). Maybe this is the mark of the mummy martyr! It doesn’t feel that way though because by meeting their emotional needs, I am actually meeting my own. If I ignore their needs in order to meet my own, I am trading in false economy. Because if they are not fine, I am a long way from being fine (even if it seems like a quick fix at the time).

But in no other area of life do people talk about the "ideal" without it being measured in the context of the reality of life pressures / personal needs and other external factors.

It's only parenting and motherhood where this isolated sense of the ideal is projected.

@likeafishneedsabike you're def not the only one! I hate feeling emotionally out of sync. I know some family think we're weird for being as bothered as we are about it but I'd far rather stop and address why DS is 'acting out', let him have a cry if he needs and teach him to articulate what he was feeling and why, than go the whole day with that horrible unspoken uneasiness building up and turning into neverending battles...

Finding out why a child is crying makes sense. Whether you can address that will depend on what they are crying about. Of course you should acknowledge their feelings. And the book how to talk so kids will listen gives really practical ways of doing this. That book is recommended a lot on here.

I think everyone should crack on with what works for their families and let everyone else do the same.

Beyond ridiculous to suggest that children are not treated as ‘people’.

Most people I know, however, treat their DC as children. Children are very different to adults in terms of what they need developmentally, how they express themselves, the relationship they have with other adults.

I have also noticed that AP seems to be particularly attractive to mothers who come from an abusive background themselves.

Yes @angryfeminist I have had to go against wider family on this one. To them it’s just a case of a child playing up and should be brushed aside and ignored because kids are kids. To me, it’s worth taking some time to get to the bottom of it and ensure everyone is on the same page and working together.
God, I sound happy clappy.

@jennymanara I guess what I'm saying is sometimes we can't address why they're crying in the sense that whatever it was is out of our control or they're crying coz we've said no etc. But I try to address it emotionally in the sense of getting him to name his feeling, empathise that it's hard and he can express that, but hold the line re: what needs to happen.

@likeafishneedsabike THANK YOU! That is indeed what I was getting at, and it is a much bigger picture than just sleep training. I can go to bed now because Someone Is Right On The Internet

@jennymanara well that stands to reason I'd say. If you've had an abusive childhood and been affected by that, stands to reason you'd be very invested in making sure your children were prioritised and that you did your absolute best for them. You might say that it gives people a bit of a polarised view (that parenting is either "perfect" or abusive). But people can only really know their own "normal"; it's not really fair to call people "broken" and describe the adherents of AP as "often from abusive backgrounds" as if that is somehow to the discredit of the philosophy.

For myself my childhood was not abusive but very dysfunctional. And yes I think that has definitely played a role in my parenting anxieties and the style of parenting I feel comfortable with (as well as my natural inclination for putting others before myself, because I was never raised to think that what I wanted or needed mattered as much as anybody else - in that respect I suppose you could say dysfunctional or abusive conditioning is potentially effective at producing the temperament required for attachment parenting! ). However, surely even taking what you say as true, it is far more beneficial for such people as me or the "broken, abused" mothers you at who AP to do that, to try and break the cycle, than to just visit it on the next generation because that is what they learned? People without a good example of parenting will need to find their own way, or repeat the patterns they learned in childhood.

I think some of you have no experience of actual sleep training and assume people leave babies screaming. That's not how it works.

That actually is what some people do, though. “Sleep training” is a broad term, it’s not just whatever technique you used.

@weaningwoes well being incapable of staying in your bed at night because you feel scared or sad is quite I adequate. Obviously literally tying a child to a bed is a bad idea - chocking risk. But indulging such a child will only make it worse. No acknowledgement/a telling off/ explaining to as appropriate and returning the child to bed is the only solution. The alternative is not teaching your child the basic life skill of sleeping peacefully which is just as bad as the women tying her kid to her bed. I say this as someone who was indulged in this respect (I can’t sleep alone now peacefully no matter how hard I try) andeho has had to go through the same with two children.

I’m not convinced the cave woman would’ve paid much attention to her child’s emotional needs. We pay a lot more attention now than we ever did. Children are a commodity in many parts of the world. I know proponents of gentle parenting/AP like to have these mental images of nomads with babies BF in slings and then feel all floaty about it but I bet the reality is in many countries there’s a lot of bottom smacking going on and likely worse. It’s romantic nonsense to think otherwise. Extended BF and slings is not AP-it’s normal and convenient. We have just packaged it up for westerners as such.

If you are happy with, for instance, extended BF then that wouldn’t make you a martyr. What would make someone a martyr would be eg me pressing on after age 3 where I had developed a serious aversion to the whole thing and was sick to the back teeth of it. In cave woman days I would’ve been pregnant at 9m post partum.

The problem is that parents are human too. I never intended to leave my baby cry, it was something I was dead against. But at 2am and after 6 hours of ds tired screaming, whether he was held or not, I left the room. I sat downstairs and cried for 10 minutes and went back to him with some renewed energy.

This has happened a few times and I’m not proud of it. Still, it’s wonderful that other women think I’m a shit mother too.

@bogglesgoggles but you do understand don't you that the VAST majority of children grow out of sleep problems on their own? It is developmentally normal for sleep to be quite disrupted for the first few years of life. I never sleep trained my daughter in any way and she was a mare, up anything up to 12 times a night at her worst. She stopped by herself. It took a long time and it was hard, but it was never necessary for me to "train" her as everyone assured me it was, scare-mongering that she would be still doing it when she was 6/7/8 if I wasn't "cruel to be kind" when she was tiny.

I think the fact you yourself have ongoing struggles with sleep is colouring your perception that a bit of arsing around at bedtime when a preschooler is necessarily developing pathology to be stamped out at all costs.

@lifeinthedeep

I certainly don't think you are a shit mum. I've done similar when run down and exhausted. I've also shouted at my partner and been short with my mother and spent a whole workday sometimes bickering on Mumsnet. That doesn't make me a shit mother or a shit partner or a crap daughter or a lazy worker. It makes me human, and fallible.

What would make me shit is if I tried to delude myself that doing that was perfectly fine, in fact more than fine but actually the best policy I could have adopted, that noone else would be negatively affected if I chose to do that all the time, and that if anyone was upset by it it was irrational of them and just meant to manipulate me.

It is the whole philosophy of "child needs to be shown who is boss, emotions child expresses aren't real/don't matter" that I disapprove of/am baffled by, not the actions of s knackered mum at the end of her tether every once in a while. Ffs.

I do actually appreciate where you are coming from op. I’m more replying to a tirade of previous posters.

If it’s any consolation, I don’t put ds 8 months to bed at any set time anymore. I’ve given up. He goes to bed when he decides he will sleep because it’s that or hours of us both crying.