To ask leavers if they would vote differently now it's looking like no deal?

[TheoriginalLEM]

And as such should we go for another referendum?

I voted to remain and would continue to do so even if a deal was possible. However it is apparent that a deal isn't going to happen. Was it ever really going to be possible?

Would that change the mind of leavers? Or even remainers?

I would prefer to see no deal (even though I know its shit) than for this car crash to continue in slow motion any further.

I'm certainly not with Elementsong. I don't know anybody who wants to leave the EU and I think recent voting and polls show the very opposite of what you seem to think.

The elements- all recent polls show the exact opposite. More people want to remain now. Either this thread has been invaded by bots or it is highly unrepresentative. Either way we need a people's vote to get out of this mess!

Increasing numbers dying street homeless, those driven to suicide by DWP sanctions, cuts, brutal sickness assessments.

Do you believe that the current cabinet care about these people?

Do you think things will get better for them with a No Deal Brexit?

Do you think Pratel, Raab et al will try and improve there situation?

Or do you think employee rights will be reduced? Benefits reduced?

entirely an English decision.
Even then, only in certain parts of England. For instance London voted remain, so London should have the option of remaining too.
I agree with you though chocolatedeficitdisorder and I hope Scotland will be happy for a few extra English folk to move there once it succeeds in independence.

I think Elements is being sarcastic!

@TheElementsSong, you’re either deluded or winding us up.

@doubleraspberry Perhaps I'm wrong? I've read of several legal challenges brought under the human rights act (when someone was denied housing by the local authority). Apparently Article 1 and 8 do not necessarily mean the right to housing. According to the judges.

@agilelass I don't understand why my questions are arrogant? Why would Brexit undermine the peace? I'm asking because, as I've said, I genuinely don't understand. I want to be educated on this. Why would a border, clearly stated as being between the EU and the UK, cause unrest or violence?

@justaboutdone No, I don't think that the current cabinet care (nor have any for years, starting with the Blair government) but that's in our power to change. We have general elections every 4 or 5 years. My point is that being in the EU doesn't help vulnerable people.

The recent by-election indicates that Leave is a majority wish, at least in that constituency. The Brexit Party split the Leave vote, which is the only reason the lib Dems won.

Voted leave.
Would vote leave again.

So the bi election where the LibDems one is now a leave vote. Okaaay.
LibDems the remain party won in Wales, which voted leave in the referendum.

namechangeforbrexit even a basic imagination could work out why the Irish border might be an issue.

Interesting how the voted leave and would do again posters haven't replied to mummeeee's concerns about her child potentially not being able to access life saving medication.

@Namechangeforbrexit I do believe being in the Eu has benefited the UK as a whole.

I do think that the policies of successive Uk governments have meant that the financial benefit of being in the EU has not been distributed fairly. But the power to improve the lives of people living in poverty has always been with the UK government.

For my part, I think some of the rights and benefits that we now have due to us being part of the EU has limited the damage that the Tory party especially can do.

I am no fan of Labour at all at the moment, although they are my natural political leaning. however, I had never even heard of a Food Bank until the last few years. One of the richest countries in the world and we have hundred of thousands of people relying on food banks. It is wrong. It needs to change. And I genuinely believe that leaving the EU will mean a whole lot more people will rely on Food Banks.
I am fortunate and we do donate when we can - not just food but school uniform etc. I will continue to try and do so if there is a no deal Brexit. But if I start to struggle financially then it will stop - I will look after my own 1st. I am sure I am not the only one who will do so.

thanks for your valiant efforts, @Doubleraspberry.

Your plaintive “surely if the people of NI want peace” is trying to shift responsibility away from those who voted for the disruptive Brexit, not to mention those advocating a disastrous no deal. No. Those are the ones who are undermining the peace settlement. Those are the ones threatening to upend all the work that has been done to end the conflict.

What part of my previous post did you not understand? I spoke of the common European framework which underpinned the open border following the GFA. How that enabled the settling of difficult questions around identity and belonging, as well as enabling the seamless living of lives across the border. Moreover it’s not just about freedom of movement, that’s easily settled under the CTA. It’s about goods, especially agricultural goods on which the NI economy (and parts of the Irish) is heavily reliant. Its about small businesses whose lorries crisscross the border countless times a day. It’s about having different customs regimes and the checks that will be required if there is no deal, in order to maintain the integrity of the EU customs territory and single market. It’s about homes, businesses and roads that straddle the border. I know of one house whose driveway is in the north but the house itself and the access road is in the south. There are more than 300 border crossings, did you know this? It’s about the common all island market for certain industries. It’s about the North South Council of Ministers - another GFA body - whose work will be made immeasurably more difficult by any form of Brexit, not to mention a hard Brexit. It’s about people living all along the border whose mobile phones regularly pick up the other sides phone masts.

If you genuinely wish to educate yourself (and aren’t just asking faux-naive questions designed to frame the Irish as a bunch of violent hotheads chomping at the bit to get back to bombs and bullets), then I suggest you look at the work of Katy Hayward.

Arf at Element. I’m with you.

namechange the European Convention, unlike the UNCHR, doesn’t have an explicit right to housing, it’s true. And apologies because I should have cited Articles 3 and 8, not 1 and 8. This Shelter articles sets out some recent ECHR rulings on housing and it seems to depend on each case, as it should!

england.shelter.org.uk/legal/homelessness_applications/challenging_la_decisions/human_rights_challenges

And vulnerable people aren’t doing brilliantly right now, that’s very true. But domestic law covers most of the factors that are causing them problems. The UK has been criticised for some of its policies internationally. The EU does provide ring fenced funding for disadvantaged areas for regeneration however. Some lives are about to get a lot grimmer once that goes. Ditto some industries that will struggle without EU subsidies - ask sheep farmers. People who are not now vulnerable but coping will suffer if food prices rise 20% (which is a government planning assumption) in the case of No Deal.

Genuine question those who blame the rest of the members for 'making it difficult for us to leave' etc what is it that the EU should do? For leavers in general, what would your answer to the Irish border question be and in what ways will life in the UK improve once we've left?

Great post, AgileLass

Why, thank you, lljkk. You are very welcome.

Great post agilelass

@TheElementsSong

And thank you, agilelass. Your posts are breaking my heart. Although who wouldn’t rise to the challenge of a customs post in their living room? Will you have a tariff with your tea?

Genuine question those who blame the rest of the members for 'making it difficult for us to leave' etc what is it that the EU should do?

All the people who talked about how a deal with the EU would be the easiest deal ever (which is arrant nonsense) raised expectations. When it turned out to be a really difficult deal, because the UK didn’t have an agreed position at any point and because it’s a complicated negotiation in any case, the same people blamed the EU for being difficult. I’m sure the EU is fighting for its own rights, as you’d expect, but the negotiation has been stretched to breaking by the UK’s behaviour and unrealistic demands.

Well yes I agree with you Double but I'd really like to know what leavers think the EU should do. I find the trend to blame others - and Ireland in particular to be er...disturbing.

Here is an opposite question, how do ardent remainers think they can reform it from the inside.

It's often overlooked when it becomes people wanting answers from leavers, its so onesided.

I'm a remainer for what its worth, so if some of the more ardent self proclaimed specialist could offer answers to the following that I have gained from reading into the situation, (that so many on these types of threads are fully understanding of)

So lets turn this around and see how knowledgeable you all are and defuse these arguments as a pro eu stance considering most of the replies are regurgitated Guardian headlines, so:

The UK has been sliding into a condition in which democracy has been largely abandoned, or hollowed-out. Engagement with our duties as democratic citizens has gradually fallen away, replaced by a sort of consumerised dependency on the elite to offer us a reasonable range of brands - to give the middle class an acceptable illusion of choice. But it's fooling fewer and fewer people

At the same time, the EU has been evolving into a crutch that politically exhausted elites like ours can lean on, collectively propping up regimes that have minimal legitimacy, domestically. Democratic accountability is specifically and deliberately excluded from the institutions of the EU, with a "parliament" that's effectively a pet focus group the executive can use to check what they can get away with. The entire structure and cadre of bureaucrats and leaders in the EU are entirely clear that The Project ends in unification. But this must not be stated overtly to electorates who value their own democratic heritage.

in parallel to those political developments, Europe and Western Capitalism in general is coming under extreme pressure, economically and geo-strategically, and the measures it took in the credit crunch have only delayed the consequences. The way that the Euro survived, at the extreme expense of southern Europe, ensures that the EU will not continue to cohere when the pressure intensifies - the fault lines are clear.

in this context, the UK elite posed a phoney question to the electorate to isolate some euroscepticism they assumed was just some rogue individuals in the elite. They failed to anticipate how the electorate itself might respond to this opportunity to change the script. When we said "change" they were shocked and discombobulated.

changing is beneficial because (a) it restores the electorate to a position of responsibility in UK politics (b) it removes us from an institution that wants to be a government without a demos and (c) it puts us into the kind of special measures we desperately need if we're not to walk into the next crisis flabby and dependent on those stronger than us to tell us how it needs to go.

So what is the counter..

Interesting (and short) thread. The OP question isn't answered except by 2 posters in Scotland as to them no deal means a greater chance of Scottish independence. It never ceases to amaze me how people have no concept of what no deal means. They think no deal means instantly out, no fuss, no need to do anything, no problem, everything simple and sorted. No. It's just the beginning of years of obtaining deals. It will be the start of the brexit horror movie. This now is just the trailer.
Leavers-please feel free to add to the thread. If you can, that is.

If you want a no deal brexit-what does no deal mean to you? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3651351-if-you-want-a-no-deal-brexit-what-does-no-deal-mean-to-you

justanotherlurker it's hard to answer your questions because I dont agree with a lot of what you are saying in the first place. For instance:

The UK has been sliding into a condition in which democracy has been largely abandoned

no it hasn't

Democratic accountability is specifically and deliberately excluded from the institutions of the EU,

No, EU representatives are elected, just as we have seen in the recent EU elections

in this context, the UK elite posed a phoney question to the electorate to isolate some euroscepticism they assumed was just some rogue individuals in the elite

yes, and people believed Boris and slogans on the bus and other lies.

I'm surprised you're a remainer btw.

I suspect most so called, never met an intelligent leaver and are just asking innocent questions will not counter my post, and unironically pretend they align themselves of the meme of critical thinking.