To ask leavers if they would vote differently now it's looking like no deal?

[TheoriginalLEM]

And as such should we go for another referendum?

I voted to remain and would continue to do so even if a deal was possible. However it is apparent that a deal isn't going to happen. Was it ever really going to be possible?

Would that change the mind of leavers? Or even remainers?

I would prefer to see no deal (even though I know its shit) than for this car crash to continue in slow motion any further.

Apricot, sorry, didn’t mean to seem that I was disagreeing! It was a comment on your question rather than a response, if that makes sense?

lurker, I’m no specialist, but if I could take a shot at your question... I agree with large swathes of it, and the difficulty in answering it lies at the bottom of the success of the far simpler (on the face of it) Leave message.

My own gut feeling is that the current EU cannot hold without substantial reform of the sort it may not be able to sustain in the same form. The challenges to the model of liberal democracy are also challenges to the EU project.

The ultimate direction of travel I suspect the EU may take involves shaking the financial drains at the edges and pushing forward on economic partnership in the north and west, and at that point perhaps the UK will find the urge to join back in again. Were we not leaving, an exercise to truly understand what EU issues people seriously held grievances about would have been immensely valuable. There’s no point pushing for reform that doesn’t meet our needs. Nebulous feelings of nostalgia and dissatisfaction come as much from domestic policy as the EU, if not more.

Ultimately until governments invest serious money and time in addressing the very real social and economic issues we have in the UK, distrust in politics will continue to grow. I worry about where that leads when the EU can no longer be blamed.

no it hasn't

The whole premise of the referendum is not legitimate is based on this line of thinking.

No, EU representatives are elected, just as we have seen in the recent EU elections

Snipping and pasting to frame an argument is highlighted here, if you want to ignore the rest of the comment then explain the outcry of why the tory goverment elected Boris as PM, then apply that to the leader of the EU and apply percentages and apply the "rich white male" scenario

yes, and people believed Boris and slogans on the bus and other lies.

You unirroically bring the meme of the bus doesn't quite show your apparent knowledge of the situation we are in, I can believe you are a remainer who has just got their information from sources that confirm their beliefs and not looked at reasons for a leave vote instead of going for an attack of lowest common detonator.

Picking the easiest points out of my statement doesn't show any kind of understanding or critical thinking , it highlights you are just as led by media as those you ridicule

I think I the evidence is there that it was a shit decision to leave,

I'm abroad this weekend and the currency exchange Is killing us. More to come.

Justan you presumably have a counter as you are a remainer.

I don't have a strong attachment to the EU and I'm sure it is far from perfect but my concerns are practical and a cost benefit analysis.

Trying to address your points, I don't believe leaving will improve people's interest in or participation in democracy, I don't understand how being in the EU has diminished the electorate's responsibility, I don't agree with the analysis that the EU as a body wants to be a Government and, and given the differences in the economies and cultures of the member states I don't see how it ever could be. I'm not sure what you mean by being in 'special measures'.

My view is that in or out of the EEA our day to day lives are run by an elite and the benefits lost by being in the EU and the monumental costs, financial, in time, and in Ireland, potentially in lives, does not appear to be balanced by any tangible benefit.
I think a lot of people voted leave because they didn't appreciate the benefits of having EEA wide rules including customs/free trade arrangements, because of immigration when most UK immigration law has nothing to do with the EU, a misunderstanding of the difference between the European Convention on Human Rights and EU law and spurious assertions Johnny foreigner wants to regulate our bananas and kippers.

However we are going to leave it seems and I really would be overjoyed to learn of some concrete ways life will improve so if anyone can list some I'd be grateful.

justanotherlurker

Picking the easiest points out of my statement doesn't show any kind of understanding or critical thinking , it highlights you are just as led by media as those you ridicule

I haven't ridiculed anybody

I answered the parts of your 'statement' that made sense, there was a lot of waffle and things which were trying to sound intellectual.

I don't claim to be an expert but I take a close interest and feel I have a reasonable grasp of the basics.

However we are going to leave it seems and I really would be overjoyed to learn of some concrete ways life will improve so if anyone can list some I'd be grateful.

This has been asked but never answered.

Cinammoncake

It has been answered many times, the problems are
1/ it is at the moment a subjective question
and
2/ when it is answered posters get the shit ripped out of them. Hence why posters have stopped rising to the bait.

boneyback do you think there are concrete reasons why it'll be better in the UK after Brexit, but people are too scared to say them on MN?

Cinammoncake

I can certainly think of a couple that I would consider "concrete", but that doesn't mean that you would find the answers satisfactory.

As for too "scared", I think a more suitable way to put in would be, "CBA to put themselves in a situation where they get ripped to pieces on the internet".

Cinnamon I read lurker’s comment about UK democracy to refer to the democratic deficit that I think many people feel is a major issue. FPTP, parties without distinct policies, a perception that policies are only targeted at certain sections of society.

And while I also don’t think that the EU wants to rule a super state or has that as a secret aspiration, nor do I think that the EP is just a focus group, I also think we can’t fail to acknowledge that people in the UK don’t understand the relationship between the EP, Council and Commission, and that the perception of a lack of representation and accountability is therefore very sellable. The fact that there will always be people within and closely monitoring the institutions with their own concerns makes it unhelpful just to say it’s all fine because there are elections. It’s a rock and hard place though because the more you try to explain the more detail creeps in, and a lot of it is complicated. A political entity representing 28 countries and a range of political parties can’t be anything else.

So I agreed with the broad question that there is widespread disillusionment with current democratic institutions, that Brexit sounds like an easy answer, but if it’s not, then what is. I may have skimmed the odd paragraph though...

I can see your point there boneyback but at the same time I think it's such a huge change for the country that we shouldn't feel people can't be asked why it's a good idea, for those of us who can't see any advantages. It can feel a bit emperors new clothes

I don't honestly know what the answer is in terms of discussion or people reaching any kind of consensus. I hate the division in the country the whole thing has caused, and am sure most of us feel that way.

Voted leave, would always vote leave, want to leave sooner rather than later.

Cinammoncake

OK, I will bite, one of the "concrete" reasons for me is stopping the closer political ties with the EU.

I already know that you disagree with this because you are Pro EU.

But the drive from the EU is closer and closer political entanglement and all that entails.

So subjective in nature, as for the "facts" of this it is written within all of the treaties that "we" have signed and the heads of the EU extol this.

I voted leave but I'd vote remain.

I don't like the proximity we are developing with the US and that psycho Trump - we need allies and I'd rather be allied with Europe than with the US which is a very bullying nation.

Thanks doubleraspberry

I agree with the issues about FPTP and certain sections of society etc but they're not new (see Thatcher for instance) Not that that makes it okay. We need to get PR but it's not going to happen any time soon.

I know there's that perception re the EU and its not a perfect institution. Leaving is so extreme compared to using our power within the EU.

Thanks boneyback
Fair enough.

My own view is that we're anticipating a problem in the future and overreacting to it, rather than trying to address the issue from the inside the EU.

In any case, a managed withdrawal is one thing, flouncing off with no deal and trying to blame the EU as if we are downtrodden victims is embarrassing.

Cinammoncake

In any case, a managed withdrawal is one thing,

I think that is what most people expected.

flouncing off with no deal and trying to blame the EU as if we are downtrodden victims is embarrassing.

That would depend if you listen to the rumours from some of the member states, and how they decided to progress. One of those rumours was even mention by a member of the German parliament to the German parliament.

Voted leave then, would vote leave now.

The EU is a shit show and the sooner we're out, the better. Just wait and watch the rest follow.

Boney if I understand you correctly your example is, as you suggest dependent on viewing the EU, and the Germans in particular, as wanting and being able to achieve a country called Europe. Your evidence for that is treaties we've entered and what some German politicians have said.

I'm really not trying to nit pick or patronise I just want to understand.
Do you think the position of many leavers is really,
'we don't know or care if there will be benefits/harms to leaving we just have a political or philosophical objection to entering treaties with other European countries because that is one step close to becoming governed by the EU '.

If so, one might argue about its basis but at least that's a coherent point of view but not one we hear very often and not really the way Brexit was sold.

Usually the reasons for leaving seem to be based on immigration and the things I mentioned in my earlier post. Which at the risk of being patronising are to a large extent misconceived (in my view).

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for examples of ways things will be better or raise real concerns about possible harm.

Remain and more remain now...

I haven't seen one convincing argument for no deal brexit....it will be a shit show if it happens...

WTO rules are shit and will automatically make our UK companies uncompetitive in world markets. No developed country trades solely on wto terms.
Just in time deliveries will be majorly disrupted. Kent will also turn into a gigantic car /lorry Park.
Access to essential medication is already happening...it's happened to me (some continental pharma companies are now refusing to deal with UK... Cos it is all so unstable /pound has been tanking.

The number of eu27 workers leaving the UK.... As they are distressed by the utter xenophobia is difficult... My local hospital is cancelling clinics as so many European staff have left...

And so it continues....

So... Up thread...
'' Others will follow... ''... And this helps us how?

'taking back control'... We already have had it... Sovereignty is not just a simple construct

'Unelected bureaucrats.' what exactly were euro elections for??

Brexiters use vocab beyond their understanding. Like WTO rules, proportions of trade with other countries, how long trade deals take, sovereignty, democracy, Lisbon Treaty, allies.
Sanity.

Brexiters hope we don't ask for details and plans. Because they have none. That's just for the grown ups and you can't make up a slogan to be easily remembered out of them.

The bloodymindedness on this thread is something to behold. The governor of the bank of england & most large businesses are warning no deal will wreck our economy and still people are bleating about looking forward to breaking up the 'bloated' European Union - whatever the jeff that means. Get a sense of perpective people - another recession may lose you your job, your home, schools and hospitals. Who gives a shit about outdated Little Britain idealism in that context? - Only those who know they'll be alright, Jack, because they don't need any of those things anyway.

Leave. Even more so now.

RuffleCrow agree only I would all it Little Englander idealism if you look at the voting patterns. London and most of the bigger English cities voted to Remain. Scotland and NI voted to Remain. The less said about the rush of shit to the head from Wales the better.

I’m terrified we’ll end up dragged into wars by a bullying Trump because we’re desperate for a shit deal. Trump never goes for a win/win. It’s always win/lose with him. He’s says ‘America First’ thousands of times and people in places like Sunderland think he’s got our best interests at heart, more so than their own countrymen and closest neighbours.

The governor of the bank of england & most large businesses are warning no deal will wreck our economy

The leaked government document gives a figure for how much value the pound will lose within a month of leaving with no deal - 25%. That's in addition to the amount it has already fallen. Interest rates would need to rise to combat inflation.