To not give birth through the NHS?

[HereOrThereAndAnywhere]

With all the news stories of poor NHS maternity care and not good outcomes, I'm wondering if it would be worth it to give birth in another country. Is that a bad idea? Was your birth experience (if you had one in the last couple years) ok?

For voting purposes

YABU = Maternity care is perfect and there's nothing to worry about
YANBU = Maternity care has really gone downhill so I would try to figure out another way to give birth either privately or abroad

Any you see outside of London will have an NHS practise, so they will be treating you in their spare time
I had a private obstetrician with my first for antenatal care, and I found it to be actually the other way around - his NHS appointments were cancelled/ rescheduled if I needed a consultation. I was nearly always able to book a slot within the next 24 hours if something bothered me.
I don't know how it is with the actual birth attendance, if private patient's labour clashes with an NHS one, because I went with the NHS for the actual birth (and regretting it now).

One option is to hire a private midwife ... it’s much cheaper then going private and gives you peace of mind. She comes to your house and then comes with you to hospital and is with you throughout. Mine was a wonderful calm experienced wise woman who saw me through and made sure I was cAlm throughout.

I have given birth to three sons with the NHS, high risk pregnancies with my second two and all inductions and my care during all births was second to none. My third and largest baby was 11lbs and my midwife was exceptional, she guided me on positions during the pushing stage to enable my body to work my baby out. She was completely hands off unless required and let my body do what came naturally. I was so scared he would get stuck as he was an enormous baby and I believe the reason it went so well was because the NHS midwife didn't try to intervene. I had no tears and even got to cut his umbilical cord myself! His big brother was more challenging as he has passed his first bowel movement inside me but the midwives again were outstanding and he was born at just shy of 9.8lbs, again no tears. Every midwife came to visit us in the wards afterwards and were so supportive. I will always hold NHS midwives close to my heart.

Also on the NHS you can ask to pay for a private room after the birth, its usually just over 100 pounds but so much better than a ward and you play a flat fee regardless of how long you need your room. It means you get privacy and don't have to worry about other mums partners being there at night :)

Unless you are having a planned c section it's not practical to go abroad. I would pay a private midwife to accompany you to hospital and oversee the birth, if she is not allowed to manage it. Maybe act as a doula. You do need someone medically trained I would say though.

Read 'this is going to hurt'. It's written by an ex obstetrician and details exactly why having a private birth in the UK might not be the best plan.

I have given birth to three sons with the NHS, high risk pregnancies with my second two and all inductions and my care during all births was second to none.

@Vampyress I honestly think this is partly because they identified, in advance (ie before labour) that all your pregnancies were high-risk. If that isn’t identified, I have heard more than one story where things didn’t go to plan because of poor monitoring or not listening to the mother’s concerns or some other unacceptable thing. I’ve never had to advocate so hard for myself or ask so many searching questions as during my NHS antenatal care, to make sure informed consent was given every time. I was given poor advice on more than one occasion. And I’m well able to do that entirely compos mentis and not off my head on entinox or blinded by pain. I would need my husband to advocate for me and I want to be able to do it for myself!

@MrsHardbroom I read that book a while back and I re-read the section about private maternity care last week. I’ve weighed up the pros and cons and I’m still going to go private. I hear Adam Kay and a comedian pal are in the middle of doing a show about how they much they love the NHS and how great it is. Well: newsflash - Adam Kay left his job as a senior registrar obstetrician for a very good reason: and it wasn’t because NHS maternity care (certainly in London) is perfect and mistakes rarely happen. The incident that triggered it was the death of a baby due to an undiagnosed placenta previa and the mother should never have been allowed to go into labour in the first place. Mother nearly died as well.

Mistakes like this simply should not happen.

Have you considered a birthing centre? It's free on the NHS! I did and it was truly amazing. It isn't an option for high risk pregnancies biut if you only want gas and air and you and baby are healthy, it's a fabulous option. There are less now due to funding but they are still there . Speak to your health care team about it.

I had mine at a birthing centre too and it was amazing! We were treated like royalty and had a dedicated midwife assisting me at all times. There was a lovely birthing pool, ambient music and lighting and a lush big bed. The after care was great too and they let us stay for two nights and we just sat there ordering omelettes and toast from their "room service" menu whilst a team of midwives taught about baby care and breastfeeding. Everyone was so helpful and the place was practically empty as everyone seems to prefer giving birth in a hospital. As a PP said, it's not for high risk pregnancies but I honestly can't think I would have received better care elsewhere. Thanks NHS! 😍

“Everyone was so helpful and the place was practically empty as everyone seems to prefer giving birth in a hospital.”

16 per cent of the almost 6000 deliveries that the Homerton in London did in 2018 were in the birth centre. We worked out that was 16 per week mean average. Reasons are demographic of mothers and advanced maternal age. As an older first time mother, I might have WANTED to have a midwife-led birth there, but statistically-speaking, chances of my actually delivering there were slim to none.

But, as I say, baby’s breech anyway (not that I would have actually found that out from the NHS until he was full term anyway). Perhaps I would have found it out only once in labour, who knows?

I think it comes down to individual hospitals. My experience was that the nearest main hospital to me which was in an adjacent city had really poor general care, but only because staff were stretched to breaking point. Clearly understaffed and overworked. Heard them mention several times that they had run out of bed space. But had anything gone wrong, this would have been the best place to be. I was there several times throughout my pregnancy for complications and vowed to do my best not to have ds there. Luckily I was able to have ds in the closer maternity hospital in my relatively smaller rural home town. Was the only person in the hospital so got full attention from both midwives. Was absolutely lovely. They took care of ds on the first night for me and let me have a lovely first night's sleep. I honestly couldnt fault them.

*Adam Kay left his job as a senior registrar obstetrician for a very good reason: and it wasn’t because NHS maternity care (certainly in London) is perfect and mistakes rarely happen. The incident that triggered it was the death of a baby due to an undiagnosed placenta previa and the mother should never have been allowed to go into labour in the first place. Mother nearly died as well.

Mistakes like this simply should not happen.*

There was quite a high profile case of a baby dying at the Portland after a series of errors. Private healthcare isn’t miraculous.

I think you need to lay off looking for horror stories and think how many babies are born safely thanks to the NHS every minute of every day.

Do some real research on the hospitals local to you.

@Vampyress no you can’t-not in my local hospital anyway. They did away with that around ten years ago I was told

Perhaps I'm being naive but I figure that private care abroad would be less expensive (even with flights and accommodation). Although I could be wrong.

My Gran used to say "buy cheap, buy twice". Not really a motto for pregnancy and childbirth.

I don't think you should base your decision about where to have a baby on where is cheaper.

Ive worked with some Greek midwives and don't think their training is as robust as U.K. midwives. Not sure about the obstetricians, but I would certainly explore how up to date and evidence based their policies and protocols are. Do they have a system like NICE for national guidelines? Are they audited/monitored by something like CQC?

Greece has had a major financial meltdown lately and a lot of Greek healthcare workers have come to the U.K. as they can't get jobs in Greece. So what are their staffing levels like?

The incident that triggered it was the death of a baby due to an undiagnosed placenta previa and the mother should never have been allowed to go into labour in the first place. Mother nearly died as well.

I thought the mother did die?

It’s hit or miss on the NHS. I had my first child in the UK. I was lucky to have a v on the ball consultant on duty that night. There were risk factors that had been missed during my pregnancy.

I had much better overall care with my second child in ROI.

There were risk factors that had been missed during my pregnancy.

And it is of this that I am terrified. Likely to be our only shot at having a child; do not want to fuck it up. And “hit and miss” is just too high-risk for my liking.

Had two children at a busy London NHS hospital. First one was an induction with pretty much every intervention bar a c-section. DS was delivered via forceps, a paed was in the room to check him over, all was fine. Epesiotomy was stitched up in theatre by registrar, all fine, no long term after effects. Post natal experience ok but ward was very busy and I was glad to be out after a few days. DS was slightly jaundiced but all was ok.
Second birth was much faster, no time for epidural and DD born after about 20 minutes of established labour. Had a lovely midwife who also stitched up my tiny cut. Had to have registrar remove the placenta by hand under only gas and air (my choice as I didn’t fancy a spinal AFTER an uncomplicated birth. )
Post natal I was actually put onto the ante natal ward as post natal was full. It was ok, don’t remember anything particularly negative.
Ante natal care for both babies was faultless, had a lot of scans, but this may have also been due to the fact that the hospital is world renowned for ante natal care (Kings in London).
I did not grow up in Britain and friends in my home country often asked me whether I would go ‘home’ for giving birth. I always found the question ludicrous for all the reasons given on this thread. And the worst birth story in my immediate circle of family and friends was actually in my home country (a highly developed EU country) due to absolutely inadequate private care (botched up planned csection in a private hospital, lack of oxygen for baby, huge delay getting baby to normal hospital, luckily the child is fine now against all odds).
Can echo issues with British citizenship. If your child is born abroad your grandchildren will not be able to get British citizenship by decent. Just something to consider.

The incident that triggered it was the death of a baby due to an undiagnosed placenta previa and the mother should never have been allowed to go into labour in the first place. Mother nearly died as well.

I thought in the Adam Kay case the baby died and the mother was saved but had to have a hysterectomy. It was an undiagnosed anterior placenta praevia and the problems occurred during a c section.

I'm not sure if the mother did actually go into labour (although of course with placenta praevia that should not happen either).

Assuming the New Yorker got its facts straight, she was allowed to go into labour:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-uk/laughing-crying-and-worrying-about-the-nhs/amp

@piglet89 oh I see. Either labour or the c section would have been disastrous then without prior diagnosis. Poor woman.

I've had low placenta in two pregnancies so this all feels a bit close to home. Terrible that it could be missed.

Yes @pennypineapple indeed.

If they can’t even tell me correctly at almost week 35 which way my baby is lying (if you can’t be sure by palpating, then do a scan for god’s sake, but don’t just GUESS and hope for the best) then I’m not that confident about the rest, to be frank.

@CuteOrangeElephant
I had my first baby in the Netherlands last year. AMA.
I had excellent antenatal care: same midwife all the way through.
Birth...I didn't want any pain relief (severe needle phobia) and so didn't have anything. They are not very pro-epidural in NL and gas & air doesn't exist. I was fine with that but not everybody would be. It was great though to have the same midwife with me all the way through the birth as had done my entire antenatal care.
Postnatal care was excellent BUT bear in mind I pay €150 a month in health insurance so it bloody should be.

@HereOrThereAndAnywhere Haven't RTFT yet but you are very naive about the possibility of baby just flying back on your passport (for your other nationality). All babies need their own passport. Furthermore there is a lot of documentation to sort out in terms of registering baby's birth in the country where they are born as well as the countries for which they have nationality. It's tricky.

@Heratnumber7
"And would the baby not have to apply for British nationality?"

No. You are British if your parents are (more or less, bar a few obscure caveats. For example, my son is British because I am, even though he was born abroad - I was born in Britain to British parents, who were also born in the UK. However, if he one day also has children abroad, they will not be automatically be British - he would have to apply for that right for them, to the tune of c. £1000 each).

@XXcstatic

"Then you will probably be giving birth without pain relief, and you'll have to pay several hundred pounds if you want to give birth in hospital, not at home. "

I gave birth in NL last year and we didn't pay anything (much less "several hundred pounds"). It was all included in our health insurance. If the OP gives birth anywhere in NL without health insurance then yes, she will have to pay. But that's different.