Why do so many people distrust socialism?

[malificent7]

Is it due to the legacy of Marx, the notion that it's a race to the bottom, the feeling that those who work harder should get paid more or a mistrust of human nature?
I do understand these concerns but what is more worrying if the vast inequality that seems to prevail nowadays. Thoughts please.

People just wouldn't have the motivation to do anything over and above.

Well, people do don’t they? My BF is Russian and her family were all barristers (now extremely rich did well out of capitalism) and we’re paid a professional wage, which was higher than a manual wage to acknowledge their skill.

Similarly in Denmark people are paid very differently, but taxed in a way that means a barrister might not end up much better off than a manual worker. But there are still plenty of danish lawyers!

Socialism involves taking people off money like me who works hard, and giving it to others who may not work hard.

I get that. On paper (to Jeremy Corbyn no doubt) I’m not doing badly. I “own” my own home, I have a job, I’m in good health, for now at least. But the reality is, I work six days a week to keep afloat, have a massive mortgage, big bills, debts and little left over to just enjoy life. I’ve not been on a proper holiday for years because I can’t afford it (bar the odd weekend away).

I’m shattered and I don’t want to work any harder, or give any more money to the government. I just don’t. Sorry.

I also have a massive distrust of politicians in general and especially the hypocritical ones like Diane Abbott (sending her kids to private school because she can afford it and then telling the rest of us we shouldn’t). The hypocrisy really upsets me to be honest.

I actually feel better now I’ve got that off my chest!

Because we have observed human nature and history and know how it will inevitably go wrong.

in Denmark??

gingerbreadsprinkle,

Glasgow University.

As I have said, socialism is predicated on common ownership (in effect, the state) of the means of production, supply and exchange. For example, here is the pre-Blair Cl 4 of the Labour Party.

To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service.

I never said socialism= Communism although I will say it is the logical condition of socialism.

Oh yeah, and before anyone says “just move” - trust me, with the nature of the work that I do and the family around me who I need for support, it really ISN’T that simple.

Socialism has given us the NHS, Education, University, roads, water and sewage systems... these are all collectives, we all pay in and get something back.

Its all very well wanting to keep all of your income and spend it on your priorities but it wont educate your child, get a road built or fund adult social care.

We need both capitalism and socialism, one without the other leads to disaster.
The balance at present has swung to far away from socialism.

fwiw Labour's manifesto is pretty much a centre left european one, they do better than us on housing, transport, health and education.

Im with you elprup and you know what happens? you work hard all your life and the HMRC bleed you dry. You then have to tax plan in later life because guess what? They might steal your house and sell it,they might plunder your pension and because we are all chattels of the state,,they will ensure that when you die,they will make you pay again via IHT. Socialism is the lesser of two evils and freedom is just an illusion.

"Reading the comments above, it is clear that people do not understand what socialism is."

Pretty much what I was going to say from thread title alone.

"Many people seem to have bought the lie (rather conveniently for the Conservative party) that socialism = communism, while failing to see the dangers of right wing extremism under their nose." I would strongly agree with that too.

Just look at how Corbyn is accused of being Trotskyist!

"Who is benefitting from the UK being so rich? I tell you as a teacher it isn't me." It certainly isn't the majority of the population full stop! It's a very small minority with most of the wealth, sat in a vault earning interest but doing nobody any real good!

"A lot of political systems are fine in theory but then people get involved, that's what ruins it people generally corrupt, we need a mixture of them all." Yes so true. Its corruption and greed (whether for material wealth or power) that fucks it up every time.

Capitalism doesn't work. hear hear!

The degree thing is tricky. I'm an ex nurse and I don't believe it should be a graduate profession, it's led to people going into the job who aren't suited to it, and people who would be great at it being excluded - and I say that as someone with a nursing degree (right at beginning of this phase of it coming in).

But I do think uni shouldn't be the preserve of the rich - again that doesn't serve our society as a whole, what if the person who could cure cancer, or who could reinvigorate our economy with a new financial principle is from a poor family who can't afford to go to uni?

"One of my fears of Brexit is that the UK will emulate more and more a US style of economic and social way of running a country." Mine too

"George Orwells bit about D. Socialism in Why I Write (I think it was) is pretty much a masterpiece on explaining a decent socialist model. He reckoned nobody should be earning any more than 20 times the lowest wage. Thats fair isnt it? Should Bankers be earning millions whilst nurses use food banks?" Absolutely. Nobody needs millions! Especially when that being the case means others not having enough to live on.

"Work hard, do well, reap the rewards- sure. But how many of the people at the top of our society actually did that to get where they are?" Very few - and then they have the nerve in some cases to take public service roles and not only accept the salaries for this but also majorly exploit the expenses made available to them!

"Socialism involves taking people off money like me who works hard, and giving it to others who may not work hard." No it involves spreading the wealth around all those who work to create it and use it to help those unable to do so. This idea that the rich or high earners "worked hard" to justify their wealth is a nonsense! Do they work harder than cleaners? Bin men? Care assistants? Of course they don't!

So so much misinformation and belief in myths.

I think people take socialism for granted - I don’t see the Tory party campaigning to eradicate state schooling, withdrawing charitable status from private schools - which is effectively a form of state funding, or seeking to remove the NHS. I don’t see them trying to remove the police force, advocating to get rid of the minimum wage or statutory holiday. The Tories are a socialist party in these respects. We did naked capitalism during the industrial revolution- people didn’t like it.

Socialism involves taking people off money like me who works hard, and giving it to others who may not work hard." No it involves spreading the wealth around all those who work to create it

But I work six days a week to have an alright life. Not a “good” life - an alright one. Why should I pay any more money to the government and make my life worse? I do my bit and I don’t want to make my life more difficult.

It is because those championing socialism never envision themselves doing the grunt work of being in the fields or down the drains digging out shit 12 hours a day, it is mostly spouted by those who are economically and geopolitical illiterate and think its a binary position.

That gets even more muddied with the meme of not true socialism of the past and apparent socialist supporting a neo liberal agenda of being pro eu.

It's not that people are against socialism, its that those who champion it lack critical thinking skills with regards to 21st century politics.

If it was simple, high tax, pay for health care nordic counrties would have taken it on already, its nothing more than uneducated juvinile thinking

But I work six days a week to have an alright life. Not a “good” life - an alright one. Why should I pay any more money to the government and make my life worse? I do my bit and I don’t want to make my life more difficult.

Pfffffft, without socialism you would be working everyday and you would have been working since you were able to walk and talk. Child labour laws would be out the window! Those kids working in factories during the industrial revolution... No breaks, no set schedule, and definitely no health and safety. Bloody fingers? Hair caught in the machinery? Fire at the factory? Absolutely fucked.

But they still had it easy compared to the ones down the mines.

Sorry but to the PP saying that Cuba has some of the best healthcare in the world, please do your homework. As a doctor I can't think of anywhere I'd rather practice less, it's an awful system. Except perhaps North Korea and Venezuela...oh wait same thing but worse

Lol @ Ginger - you do realise times have moved on since the Victorian era, don’t you? I’d assumed this debate was about socialism vs conservatism today, not in 1856.

I don’t see the Tory party campaigning to eradicate state schooling, withdrawing charitable status from private schools - which is effectively a form of state funding, or seeking to remove the NHS. I don’t see them trying to remove the police force, advocating to get rid of the minimum wage or statutory holiday.

You might want to read 'Britannia Unchained' by our esteemed new Foreign and Home Secretaries (plus others such as Truss & Kwarteng), because some of that is exactly what they're proposing.

Lol @ Ginger - you do realise times have moved on since the Victorian era, don’t you? I’d assumed this debate was about socialism vs conservatism today, not in 1856.

Yes, but this is THANKS to socialism.

Tories keep stripping socialism to the bone via austerity. It doesn't take long to turn back the clock, lose your right to a doctor and lose all concept of health and safety. We may joke that it was a long long time ago, but people a long long time ago fought damn hard against the selfish nature of humans in capitalism so we all had some standard of living. We need to always fight to keep that standard otherwise it's all going. I don't want to pay what Americans pay to see a doctor. I want to keep my rights to breaks and holidays. The elites of capitalism work really hard to brainwash the masses, look at how we have come to Brexit!

Great post Graphista

The sad thing is, many people who oppose socialist policies would actually benefit from them.

Socialism involves taking people off money like me who works hard, and giving it to others who may not work hard." No it involves spreading the wealth around all those who work to create it
I do not mind paying taxes to help the sick ,the elderly and the vulnerable. What i dont want to pay for if a lifestyle choice which so many adopt in this country. I dont want ot pay for baby breeders,economic migrants, lazy people etc etc. IO am in the business of working hard and paying as little tax as possible.

The elites of capitalism work really hard to brainwash the masses

I take your point but I’m just an average person and I’m struggling to keep my head above water. Then I read that Jeremy Corbyn wants to charge me more taxes. Why would I vote for more of my income to be taken from me when I struggle as it is? If he were only targeting the wealthy then fair enough, but I feel it’s people on my kind of income who will suffer the most from a Corbyn government.

I think my point about Diane Abbott is a valid one too.

The sad thing is, many people who oppose socialist policies would actually benefit from them.

I’d love to know how I would benefit (see previous posts for info on my situation)

I don’t have kids btw - and don’t intend to.

@Graphista excellent post.

Then I read that Jeremy Corbyn wants to charge me more taxes. Why would I vote for more of my income to be taken from me when I struggle as it is?

Because far far more of your income will disappear when you have to pay for health insurance and still pay the same tax rate.

But I work six days a week to have an alright life. Not a “good” life - an alright one. Why should I pay any more money to the government and make my life worse? I do my bit and I don’t want to make my life more difficult.

You are a prime example of why capitalism is failing people. Working six days a week just to stand still, and feeling pressured and exhausted all the time. You realise that socialism advocates for workers rights, better work life balance, the possibility of obtaining the basics in life (such as a roof over your head) without killing yourself in the process?

“Because far far more of your income will disappear when you have to pay for health insurance and still pay the same tax rate”

Not necessarily. I have a few health conditions so would have that problem but a lot of people won’t.