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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Why do so many people distrust socialism?

494 replies

malificent7 · 25/07/2019 18:44

Is it due to the legacy of Marx, the notion that it's a race to the bottom, the feeling that those who work harder should get paid more or a mistrust of human nature?
I do understand these concerns but what is more worrying if the vast inequality that seems to prevail nowadays. Thoughts please.

OP posts:
Shortstuff99 · 29/07/2019 14:27

Either that or state schools should get the same relief.

It’s almost as though your suggestion would RAISE standards for all rather than delivering equality by lowering the standards for all. Back to the Gulag with you!

PettyContractor · 29/07/2019 14:44

What actually is your problem with the state, who you admit provides some services you like, benefiting from your assets to ensure a fairer and easier life for everyone when you die?

The state has no intention of doing the most possible good with my money. It will, at best, spend it on the British poor, not far poorer people say somewhere in Africa. You call me abhorrent, but you want my money directed at people that matter to you, rather than far poorer people elsewhere. (You could have told me to give to it to a charity that benefits the worlds poorest, and that would be my second choice, after my own children. The British state will always be third, among those three options.)

People who think the British state is the best possibly recipient of charitable donations are either intellectually challenged, or, more likely, make the claim because they or people they care about will benefit from its spending.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 29/07/2019 14:46

In communist Russia, people got housing as standard, and those that lived in the city got a house in the country as well (for free given to them by the state!)

Are you sure? I could be wrong, but thought country dachas were in the gift of the communist state and were only given to the fat cats?

Mammajay · 29/07/2019 14:46

Extra high taxation... listen to the Beatles The Taxman when top rate under Labour was 95p in the pound.

BlamesFartsOnTheNeighbour · 29/07/2019 15:03

Some members of the Tory party want the death penalty reinstated. Doesn't make it party policy.

CendrillonSings · 29/07/2019 15:28

In case you hadn’t noticed, we live in an age where the members’ opinions rule their parties. If enough of them want it, the party will most certainly do it.

Shortstuff99 · 29/07/2019 15:33

Some members of the Tory party want the death penalty reinstated. Doesn't make it party policy

Well done you’ve managed a straw man, whataboutery, and a false dichotomy all in one turgid post!

KOKOagainandagain · 29/07/2019 17:00

The argument that competitiveness is human nature is evidently false.

What defines humanity is free-giving. Do you labour for your family or wider community for economic reward?

Capitalism bastardises free-giving by attempting to economise it. And to add insult pays care giving at the lowest level.

Despite this capitalism could not exist if not for free giving of care for the young, disabled or elderly.

But digital economies recognise the power of free giving. Think of software being released for users to identify bugs.

Lweji · 29/07/2019 17:14

A pp posted this

In communist Russia, people got housing as standard(...)
What they didn’t add was that if you didn’t tow the line (and sometimes if you did) you were murdered or sent to a Labour camp.

Fair enough, although it was a figure of speech. There's always one... Grin for either side.

"Some members of the Tory party want the death penalty reinstated. Doesn't make it party policy"

Well done you’ve managed a straw man, whataboutery, and a false dichotomy all in one turgid post!

Are you sure you understand those terms? It was a valid example to say that in the same way Labour won't implement policies like 100% inheritance tax just because a few members may want it.

The state has no intention of doing the most possible good with my money.

Of course that depends, but most people with money will have the same attitude as you and won't part easily with their money, even if they say they'll give to those that "really need it".
How many would give even 10% of their income, in a completely capitalist system?

I fully agree that taxation is a difficult topic and a sensitive one in economic terms. Too much and revenue is actually likely to decline (agree with this) and limits free enterprise. Too little and the vulnerable suffer.

The point of "helping the poor" at home is to build a more equal and fair society. Countries with the largest distances between the rich and the poor (effectively with low social support and bad public services) suffer from more violence, poorer health, etc. Countries with a fairer distribution of wealth tend to be safer and healthier.

Not sure you'd like to live in Brazil, for example, where even middle classes have to live in secure buildings. Brazilians coming to Europe marvel at our lack of security in houses (low walls), and how relaxed people are in the street.

HeresMe · 29/07/2019 18:02

I don't think Corbyn is a anti Semite, he's not sorted it out, however I think the party are chasing the Muslim vote by being anti Semitic.

dodgeballchamp · 30/07/2019 00:23

If you’re insinuating that I benefit from or claim from the state Petty you are wrong. I’m actually only a few grand off being a higher rate taxpayer, and given that I’ve reached a point of financial independence genuinely on my own hard work (no family money, connections or other help) I could easily have taken a more capitalist stance. I just think society should be more equal. The current government admittedly I wouldn’t trust to do the best thing with increased taxation but the principle I still believe in. I have no problem with donating to overseas causes either but that’s not what this discussion is about

SummerSeasoning · 30/07/2019 10:52

Is paying tax to a nation state just a form of local chauvinism then?

Shortstuff99 · 30/07/2019 17:17

I just think society should be more equal.

Capitalism always results in a concentration of wealth

Forced equality systems always fail and make everyone poor or dead

The standard of living in the U.K. is amazing even for the poor by comparison

It’s the lesser of 2 evils

BishopBrennansArse · 30/07/2019 20:27

So amazing that an average of 10 people a week are dying whilst waiting for benefits decisions. People with illnesses like terminal cancer.

Working families are having to use food banks.

Crime is on the rise, increasingly desperate people resorting to robbery.....

Yeah it's great.

Only someone who hasn't lived it could say it's good to be poor.

Lweji · 30/07/2019 21:18

Forced equality systems always fail and make everyone poor or dead

I agree.

But for the hard of reading, democratic socialism is about a fairer distribution of wealth, not forced equality of wealth.
Avoiding extreme concentration of wealth, along with protection of the most vulnerable and ensuring actual equal opportunities for those who are willing and capable can only be a good thing. Do you disagree?

Lweji · 30/07/2019 21:18

Only someone who hasn't lived it could say it's good to be poor.

Being poor is just an opportunity to become rich, didn't you know?

Shortstuff99 · 30/07/2019 23:56

Only someone who hasn't lived it could say it's good to be poor

I didn’t say it was good to be poor or anything approaching that. I said the poor in this country have it better than say the peasants of Russia and China who were starved or murdered by the communist regime on a mass scale of 10’s of millions, not 10 a week

Shortstuff99 · 31/07/2019 00:03

for the hard of reading, democratic socialism

Yes, the hard of reading, the op didn’t mention democrat socialism whatever that is, it certainly wasn’t a thing when I got a 2:1 in politics 16 years ago.

Karl Marx’s Communist Manifesto, the blueprint of the most murderous regimes to exist in human history, said that socialism was merely to be used as a tool to install communism. The Labour front bench are Marxists / communist sympathisers. McDonnel has appeared at rally’s under posters of the leaders of these muderous regimes. It’s not a stretch to believe their intentions are to follow Marx’s well trodden path

My fear and I think many’s of socialism is for this reason. I have no fear of socialist policies like welfare. Pure ideological socialism is a different and more extreme thing and when favoured by Marxists is a cause for genuine concern for the given reason

Lweji · 31/07/2019 07:52

I said the poor in this country have it better than say the peasants of Russia and China who were starved or murdered by the communist regime on a mass scale of 10’s of millions, not 10 a week

But also much better than the poor under a more capitalistic regime pre-social reform. Better than the poor during the industrial revolution, which is probably the closer example of extreme capitalism. Better living conditions and better health.

Why do you think socialism and communism arose? Look where they actually tool hold. Because of the huge disparities between the poor and the rich. This was under feudal regimes, but extreme capitalism leads to something similar. Vicious circles where the rich become richer and the poor become poorer and their work explored by those with power (wealth).

The poor in western countries have it much better than under extreme capitalism or socialism. And have it better because both of capitalism and socialism.
The poor have it better because of legal minimum wages and because of wealth redistribution through taxes, I. E. socialist policies. But also because wealth is generated and driven up by capitalism.

Can you truly not recognise the importance of both and their limitations in today's western societies?

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