Why do so many people distrust socialism?

[malificent7]

Is it due to the legacy of Marx, the notion that it's a race to the bottom, the feeling that those who work harder should get paid more or a mistrust of human nature?
I do understand these concerns but what is more worrying if the vast inequality that seems to prevail nowadays. Thoughts please.

Gingerbreadsprinkle bang on

Because far far more of your income will disappear when you have to pay for health insurance and still pay the same tax rate.

But I don’t trust Jeremy Corbyn to spend the extra tax I may have to pay him in a way that will benefit me. I just don’t!

I read an interesting stat in the Guardian today. It said that only 12% of the UK working populace earns more than 50k. I found that surprising so maybe i operate in a bubble.

You realise that socialism advocates for workers rights, better work life balance, the possibility of obtaining the basics in life (such as a roof over your head) without killing yourself in the process?

No - because I’m one of those people who will fall through the gaps. Very low earners will be fine. High earners will be fine. It’s the “JAM” people (as Theresa May put it) who will be the ones who pay the most.

And still no one has addressed my point about Diane Abbott...

I can't see a single example of where it has been used and has been better for the people than capitalism.

Public education is one.

I read an interesting stat in the Guardian today. It said that only 12% of the UK working populace earns more than 50k. I found that surprising

To me that’s not surprising at all!

People don't trust socialism because socialist governments don't understand:

You cannot legislate poor people out of poverty by legislating rich people into poverty.

You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.

Any government can't give anything to anyone unless they've taken it from someone else.

When half of society realises they don't have to work hard because the govt will take care of them, and the other half realises there's no point in working hard because the govt will take what they worked for to give to others, society is doomed.

And most importantly of all:

SOCIALIST GOVERNEMTNS WILL ALWAYS FAIL BECAUSE EVENTUALLY THEY RUN OUT OF OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY.

I’m really frightened about the Boris cabinet that’s been assembled. I like the centre ground basically, and distrust any sort of far left or right (so Corbyn AND Boris).

Public education is one.

Housing is another one. Under socialism, very few people are homeless. With unfettered capitalism, it skyrockets. We have a housing crisis where many people on above average wages can't buy a house anywhere remotely convenient to their place of work. People who inherit are at a massive advantage, more so than in previous generations.

Not necessarily. I have a few health conditions so would have that problem but a lot of people won’t.

You pay a monthly amount regardless of any issue.
You then pay a deductible until you are allowed access to the insurance coverage.
If you have something small, even contraception, you then pay a copay to see a doctor for this. You also pay a copay for the drugs.

The most basic bullshit plan will see everyone thousands of pounds worse off per year.

A normal "NHS" level coverage would probably cost an American at least $600-$1000 per MONTH with NO health problems. Add a deductible of $2000-$8000 before you get any coverage. Co-pay might be anywhere from $20 - $300

This is per year... For insurance!

No coverage? Yep, you'll just be fucked and lose your house instead if you're damned enough to get something like cancer although you could still lose your house if you run out of insurance coverage and had cancer... I had a family member who gave birth uninsured in America and it was monthly payments until $50,000 was paid off.

$1 = £0.80

I take your point but I’m just an average person and I’m struggling to keep my head above water. Then I read that Jeremy Corbyn wants to charge me more taxes

What a load of rubbish!

Labour want to close down more tax loopholes for the wealthy, increase Corp tax to the rate it was in 2015, charge a little extra for those earning more than 150k, probably not you? so your taxes will not go up under a Labour govt.

Under a Tory one, you ve seen council and insurance tax soar, plus NI has gone up, meanwhile all public services had reduced, fortnightly bin collections, no police and shite roads... oh and our kids have to pay a fortune to go to college or uni....

I support Labour because i have done the donkey work, was brought up in poverty and saw that what got me and my siblings out of that mess has been removed by the tories.

*What a load of rubbish!

Labour want to close down more tax loopholes for the wealthy, increase Corp tax to the rate it was in 2015, charge a little extra for those earning more than 150k, probably not you? so your taxes will not go up under a Labour govt.

Well why didn’t they DO it then, from 1996-2010?

YOU’RE the one speaking a load of rubbish.

If you are a fan of socialism I am pretty sure you did not grow up behind the Iron Curtain. It really frightens me to think what would happen if this country were to have a socialist government.

Any government can't give anything to anyone unless they've taken it from someone else

^this

We have seen negative average wage growth since 2008, meanwhile the wealthy have seen their wages go up 150%... money taken from the average man and woman in the street and given to the rich, perhaps not directly by the Govt but they ve done nothing about it and have encouraged companies by reducing corp tax to record lows, among the lowest in the world now and soon to be cut further.... Boris wants to cut the upper rate of tax too.

Labour up to 2010 isn't the current one. Their manifesto is very different.
Unless you earn over £150,000 a year you won't pay more tax.

Corporations will, they'll close the loopholes Amazon, Starbucks etc are using.

Lifecraft

All sound bites and cliches, but none of it is grounded in reality.

Wealth inequality is consistently increasing. A small number of people are taking an ever increasing share of the pot, because the system rewards the rich. It's obvious how this will impact society, there are already people in work living on the breadline. Food bank use is increasing. If this is allowed to go unchecked, it will squeeze the middle class too. You can argue it already is, particularly for the younger ones. How do you propose solving this problem?

Well the best way to slay bogeymen is to clearly understand what is socialism, and what isn't, leastways according to the classic definition.

Socialism is a complete system of economics. It is that the means of production (ie, how we make things), supply (how we get them to where they need to go) and exchange (payment) are in the hands of the workers. In theory that could mean co-operatives, but in practice it has meant the State.

This means Communist countries are socialist, because the State controls the means of production, supply and exchange. Some Communist countries had elected parliaments, others didn't. None of them were "free" in the sense we would understand, and the elections weren't free and fair.

It means countries like Denmark aren't socialist. Being "socialist" doesn't mean simply having some sort of welfare provision. England has had poor relief for centuries. It doesn't make it "socialist". There isn't some point at which welfare provision becomes generous enough to be considered "socialist".

It means the NHS is not "socialist". The NHS is simply a state-funded body that provides medical treatment. All countries have had some state-funded organisations, for example, postal services and the military - and public education. Whether the NHS is good or bad depends on whether it's the most efficient way to deliver healthcare and it has nothing to do with socialism.

China isn't really socialist, because it has a free market.

North Korea is absolute monarchy dressed up as Communist. Because it's really an absolute monarchy, it's not socialist.

Denmark isn't socialist, because it has a free market. It just has generous welfare provision.

Whether or not you should be for or against socialism depends on whether or not you think there should be a free market. Back in the 1970s, everyone's favourite uncle Tony Benn was the Secretary of State for Industry - in other words in charge of regulating and controlling industrial production, and his specific aim was to abolish the free market.

I'm not just quibbling about semantics. When the Tories say the NHS is "socialist" in order to link it to the USSR, they're talking bollocks. When people say the USSR is not "socialist" they're also talking bollocks, or are perhaps misguided.

Socialism is Communism lite.

To me socialism means government control, and I don’t trust the government.

You were the one who said the argument should be about what is happening now.... in 2019.

What labour did or didn't do in 1997 is irrelevant, none of that govt are still around.

My point still stands that Labour will not put up taxes for those on incomes below 150k, where is your evidence that they will? there is no public statement to that affect nor is it in their manifesto.

Whatever you read was wrong.

If you are a fan of socialism I am pretty sure you did not grow up behind the Iron Curtain.

I don't believe anybody here is advocating for communism. However, socialism is needed to balance capitalism, which has gotten out of control.

Communism is a subset of socialism in my view. There are various versions of Communism - Stalinism, Trotskyism etc, and this is why the various Communist group have traditionally fought with each other like rats in a sack. There are various versions of socialism too, but fundamentally it's a belief about economic systems and how they should be managed. Not just whether governments should spend more money on those who have less.

Well funnily enough I don't trust the CEOs, the hedge fund managers etc who have power now...

Re socialism and its definition, there is no political party in the UK espousing true socialism, so its a moot point, just as the Tories dont espouse true capitalism.

The thread would be better named "Why do so many people distrust Labour?"

It's evident in every country that has based its whole system on "socialism" and failed utterly. Read Animal Farm. This is exactly why it would never work.

You were the one who said the argument should be about what is happening now.... in 2019.

How is what Labour did in 1997 (to 2010 - a date you helpfully left out of your argument) irrelevant?

1997 to 2010 (yes, 2010! Just nine years ago!) is far more recent than the period in time that Ginger was talking about.

A very weak argument I’m afraid.

And yes, Labour under Jeremy Corbyn WILL put up my tax. I have a garden - I’ve read that Jeremy Corbyn wants to tax me for the privilege.

Why can’t anyone answer my point about Diane A?