Sending money back to PIL - WWYD?

[Namechangedonceagain]

My DH is Indian, and his family live in India. They're wonderful, although very traditional. (For example, we had a very hard time convincing them that we wouldn't be moving to India to live with them in their family home as per the tradition, but they have seem to have finally understood this now and stopped asking.)

We have an awkward situation with them regarding money. Traditionally, as a son, my husband is expected to send money back to the family home to support them. There are four people (parents and grandparents) living their permanently, and his sister and her baby live there half the week (the other half with her husband and his family). PIL buy almost everything for SIL and her baby (may be relevent).

So, DH feels really awkward as there's an expectation that we will send money back to them every month. But they don't need the money. They have another house that they rent out which means they can afford all food and everything else they need on a daily basis. They also have a huge amount of property and land which they could sell if they wanted to and be very wealthy. (I don't mean the land that they live on (which is also huge!) - I mean additional unused land which is seperate to where they live and just going to waste. They don't want to sell it but we aren't sure why, as it's really not used at all and worth a lot of money.) Should add - we only think they should sell a small part of it as they should enjoy their retirement and travel, something they've never done - we don't want any of the money!

Here is my confusion. I asked DH why, traditionally, we should send money that they don't need. He said (traditionally) they'd keep any money that we don't use in a savings account so that any left over after their death would be divided between him and SIL. As SIL isn't expected to contribute any money, this seems odd and unfair to me - so we should give them a proportion of our money each month so that maybe in 30 years we can have half of it back? And SIL can have the other half?

Secondly, he said that he thinks the reason his dad is reluctant to sell part of the land is because he wants to leave it (along with all other land) for DH and SIL in his will. Which is lovely but they've both told him they don't need it and would rather he sold it and enjoyed his retirement!

I guess my question is, how would you deal with this? DH and I don't want to send the money (we really can't afford to send money - any contribution would be a struggle at the moment - especially to people who don't need it) and it seems really odd since they are much wealthier than us and don't need it.

Not only do they have a lot of land and income from tenants but they also gifted SIL several thousand pounds when she got married (again, a tradition) while we got nothing (as not a tradition). It just seems a bit unfair that SIL has thousands of pounds sat in the bank which isn't being used (as PIL pay for everything for her and her baby) and yet we are expected to send our hard earned money to them each month so they can potentially just put it in the bank and give us half back when we are old and hopefully more financially secure! There's no question that SIL should or would contribute in anyway.

We love them but we really aren't in a financial position to send money but don't know how to not play a part in this tradition as it will cause offence (we have already upset them by not living with them so are worried this might really make them upset).

DH isn't traditional at all and has lived abroad a long time so sees this whole thing as just as odd as I do. Keen to add also that we don't blame them at all - we know it's just a tradition which is why they expect it. But if we weren't to give them money they would be a bit hurt and also embarrassed in front of their friends and relatives (who use their children's incomes to show off to each other and compete about whose child buys them the most!)

They would never force us to send money or be angry about it - I don't think (although these traditions seem to run deep so sometimes their reactions to our breaking them are surprising).

WWYD?

So, if you ignore all the cultural differences for a moment, this is a very common situation, namely dysfunctional family dynamics, in which parents treat their children differently. Your SIL is the favoured child who gets special treatment. Your DH is not. Sometimes this is called "golden child" and "scapegoat". I suspect that's the big problem at the root of all this. Cultural traditions are relevant because there are such different "rules" and expectations for men and women. But the fact is that this family would be dysfunctional whatever their culture.

Your DH might find it helpful to read Toxic Parents and you might find it helpful to read Toxic In-laws.

On a practical note, would PILs consider selling the unused land and splitting the profits 50/50 between your DH and SIL? This would give SIL some financial independence (very untraditional of course and it will probably be controversial) and it would help DH (and you) to buy a house.

As the favoured child, SIL is probably spoiled and unlikeable, but she is also a victim in some ways - as they have kept her dependent on them (both practically and emotionally) by continuing to do everything for her rather than encouraging her to fly the nest (either independently or by starting a new family with a husband she is happy with). You say it was an arranged marriage - I wonder if they intentionally chose someone who wouldn't really "take her away from them".

I think your DH had a lucky escape. He needs to work on overcoming his FOG (fear obligation and guilt) and come to his own decision about whether he is going to send them money - and if he isn't, how is going to explain it to them.

In the nicest possible way, this is his problem and not yours. It only becomes your problem if he decides that he wants to give them family money you can't afford.

actually it's not me who is saying I refuse to do this! DH doesn't think that we should do it

I know, OP; in fact it was me who pointed out uothread that you'd said this. The bit I can't understand, though, is why so much angst is landing on you, if in their minds it's his decision (remembering that from a traditional perspective your view won't count at all - and doubly so as you're not Indian)

I absolutely realise it's the sort of thing you'll talk about together, and quite right too, but surely as the "head of (your) family" it's down to him to lay out to them exactly how it's going to be, and hopefully shut them down if they try to blame you as a "corrupting influence"? I appreciate this probably wouldn't go down well, but at some point somebody's got to make the decision unless you want it all to drag on endlessly

And about the updates on exactly how much tradition's being broken for SIL ... I may be completely off the mark here, but is it possible that, having made all these exceptions, they're somehow trying to claw back some of their traditional status by putting your DH even more firmly in the frame - almost to "make up for it" if you see what I mean?

At first I thought this was bonkers, but then I wondered if your dh has had his part of this ‘deal’ already.

What I mean is, if he got things paid for by his parents, the Indian way, rather than the uk way, where you have student loans, part time jobs whilst studying etc. Then he should pay back, the Indian way.

Eg. If he has no loan because his parents paid for his education then he’s better off because of the Indian system and should pay up the money, that he would otherwise be paying to the student loans company.

Just a wild guess but I am assuming that the cost of living in the UK (if that's where you are) is far higher than in India, therefore you cannot afford to send any.

End of.

I think the way you describe you SIL isn’t nice. This is a young girl married off to someone she doesn’t like who’s parents are trying to help. I’d be worried about her not begrudging her the days of respite she does have. Some ILs can be vicious to wives they don’t like. Poor woman.

If your children are going without why haven’t you asked the family for the things they need? It’s a group effort.

Did they have a part in arranging SIL's marriage?

If so, is what they do for her guilt due to that?

If he has no loan because his parents paid for his education then he’s better off because of the Indian system and should pay up the money, that he would otherwise be paying to the student loans company

Have a look at OP's post at 13.51, thecat. She said DH's education and healthcare were free because his dad had a government job - which I understand is pretty standard in India (and no doubt one reason why folk are so keen on such jobs)

For all you know the “government job” was soul destroyingly boring and he kept doing it so his children would be educated. To emigrate and study in a different continent and language is a huge achievement. I very much doubt your dh did it without significant support to launch him. Was university really covered by a bursary or helped? Who tutored him fed him and supported him in his application?

@Puzzledandpissedoff

Sorry I missed that. In that case, I agree with the masses - don't pay back. It doesn't make any sense.

So why doesn't that apply to your husband??

Her relationship is abusive and that is the fundamental difference.

OP, I remember your previous thread and am glad you were able to resolve all that.

I’d say send a token amount if you can to avoid embarrassment. Alternatively, you need to plead poverty. You could always insist that they come to visit next time a visit is due. That way they can see that your house is smaller than theirs and their expectations might be reduced.

For those who think it’s a good idea for the PIL to build up a nest egg and will it back, have you thought about the tax aspects?

Actually, SILs husband isn't abusive. He's an arse, but he's not abusive, in the context of the tradition. SIL's PIL aren't cruel to her. I'm very close to SIL - we talk regularly and spend most of our time together when we visit! They're kind, they try to make her feel at home. They give her the option to do what she wants - to work or not to work. They aren't bad people. Her husband is an arse, yes. They're incompatible, yes. But they're not bad people.

SIL chooses not to work because she doesn't like to work. Her husband supports this and just asks that if she doesn't work, then she helps his mum around the house a bit. Nothing strenuous. Just if mum cooks, she washes up. Or maybe she could take a turn cooking once every so often. As they are living together, sharing meals, and a living space, this doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

SIL HATES housework. She HATES working. And he really doesn't like looking after her child.

If she stays at my PIL house she doesn't have to work, she doesn't have to do housework, she doesn't have to help with anything, and she doesn't have to look after her child.

If she stays with HER PIL, she might have to do the washing up, hang out the washing, and while her MIL does most of her childcare during the day, she will also expect SIL to help out too, when she's not doing anything else. Again, not unreasonable imo.

In her culture, it's REALLY bad that she won't stay in her husband's house while her husband does. Apparently it's 'humiliating' as all neighbours and friends will notice and think they're having an unhappy marriage or that she doesnt like his family.

So yes, her DH refuses to give her the money her parents do, to spend on days out with friends or shopping trips etc. He feels that he shouldn't take money out of the family pot to pay for her to live in her mum's house, just because she doesn't like helping out around the house or looking after her own child.

When she does stay in his house he pays for everything, and the child has a full lot of supplies at his family home. But he doesn't want to buy double everything for the baby just so she can take the baby to her parents house. He misses his child and works very, very long hours so can't just turn up at my PILs house after work (the two houses are an hour's drive apart). So yes he does withhold money but it's not a simple case of financial abuse. And as much as I can't stand the guy, I dont think it's fair to call him abusive.

Itwouldtakemuchmorethanthis - maybe his job was boring sometimes? I don't know. Is this relevant? I sometimes find my job boring, but I do it to feed and clothe my child, and ensure they have access to education and healthcare. Is this going 'above and beyond' or is this doing the absolute minimum that a parent SHOULD do - surely failing to do these things would be neglectful? Just because I have to be sometimes bored in order to support and ensure the survival the children I chose to bring into this world, does this mean that my children should be paying me compensation for not letting me starve for the rest of my life? Even if this negatively affects their life? And even if I don't need the money?

For not letting THEM starve, that should say

diddl - they did arrange her marriage, and they definitely do regret it. I really feel that this might partially explain their behaviour. Although according to DH they have favoured SIL since childhood - I think this might be a cultural thing (at least in his area/community, women and girls are seen as sort of weak and needing to be protected so maybe she just seemed more fragile to them or ... I don't know? Something like this?)

makingmammaries - it's a great idea to get them to visit! I agree! But unfortunately they don't want to. If they were to come we would have to pay for them all and they pretty much come as a group - we would have to pay for at least 7 people to come (including SILs husband). If we won't pay they won't come. It would cost around £600 pp for flights alone so no way could we afford it. We did try inviting PIL alone but I don't think they'd want to come without everyone else.

Puzzledandpissedoff - I don't know why I'm stressing so much about it. I'm a worrier in general, for sure. But more than this I guess it's that I just like them a lot! And we have a good relationship, and I want that to remain. I feel conscious of the fact that maybe they sometimes think this might be my fault? Based purely on the fact that I'm not Indian. They have said in the past that the reason DH wants to have a different life to what they have is because he's SEEN another life - he's seen how people live in the UK and abroad, he's seen people having freedoms he wouldn't have had at home, and how he wants this life and these freedoms for himself and his family. He loves his family and he wants to see them as often as possible, but he's never going to be able to go from his life now to a traditional life, and he doesn't want that life for our son and more especially for our daughter. Since having his own children he's become even more sure that India isn't where we should be , although if I'm honest since I've met him it was NEVER an option in his mind to live the traditional Indian life his parents want for him. From day 1 he made it clear to me that he didn't want this. But I can't help but feel that maybe they might blame me? Deep down - although they wouldn't say it (although they have made comments in the past about how if he did an arranged marriage to an Indian girl then they would be able to make him live with them.) So although they like me and I like them and they're lovely to be, I suppose I feel insecure that maybe deep down they think it's my fault that he's not there with them - maybe a part of them feels that I stole their son and their rights
to have their grandchildren around all the time, etc. And I just want us to all be happy, I guess! It's pathetic but I really just want the cowards way out - for all the issues and expectations to disappear, without any blame or any resentment, and for us to just be a normal happy family!

Also, this:

"Is it possible that, having made all these exceptions, they're somehow trying to claw back some of their traditional status by putting your DH even more firmly in the frame"

I read this to DH because it sounds so right. Yes - maybe! As a pp said, I think they feel guilty and wish they never made their daughter marry. They want to break traditions for her to make her really happy and give her everything she wants, maybe to alleviate these feelings of guilt. But to break tradition entirely - to have two entirely untraditional children - might embarass them, or make neighbours and relatives talk. Maybe they feel that if they can make DH and I live a very traditional life then they can justify all the exceptions they're making for SIL?

They know that moving to India would really, really lower our quality of life, it would take away ALL of our opportunities (can't explain too clearly why but this is job related), we would be very, very poor (the small amount we could earn would have to be divided between the entire 9 person household) and we wouldn't be able to afford our children to have a good education, we'd even struggle with health insurance, we wouldn't be able to ever take them back to the UK or or any trips. But they have commented many times that we don't need these things because we had a love marriage so we have love - we are already happy. SIL doesn't have love, she has a man who sort of bores and irritates her. Divorce would be too embarrassing so if off the table, so instead maybe they feel that she should be given the untraditional fun life and we should suck it up and accept the boring life she doesn't want because at least we have love. And if we live the traditional life then she can do more of what she wants - both because our money will pay for all their food so they'll have more disposable income for her, and also because the neighbours will see the obedient son and maybe not pay attention to the non-traditional daughter.

AnotherEmma - your post was really interesting and actually you're totally right. Remove the traditions and the excuses and what you really have is two siblings who are treated very differently. And although DH and I love SIL, I suppose it does create a toxic environment - the stress of this is really ongoing and it's tough to have these worries on top of normal every day worries. We can't ask for support from inlaws (like a pp suggested) - DH is the son so HE should support the family. The family is under no obligation to support him. If we ever needed financial help we wouldn't be given it (maybe - MAYBE a loan at a push in a really serious situation - I'm not even sure of this) but we would be expected to give freely to everyone else although they don't need the money. If someone in the family wanted or needed money for something we would be expected to provide and not expect to be paid back (DH said if we asked to be repaid it would be seen as REALLY bad) but we wouldnt be offered this in return. Don't get me wrong - we don't want this! We don't want to just be given stuff. We want to work and support ourselves. But it's also very stressful to go through life not knowing if we are going to cause a family conflict by not having enough money to part with whenever it is required of us.

I do agree that SIL is in a way a victim. she is quite spoilt but she isn't given freedom. She can't do things alone. She is babied a lot. She has very low confidence. She doesn't think she can do anything because she's never done anything alone. Even stuff like going to the bank or to the doctor she will be taken by her parents so you're totally right, she is almost dependent on them. Despite the fact that her child is over a year old PIL encourage her not to work, saying she is 'too weak' from the birth to work (normal childbirth, no complications). She really believes she is weak and can't do much. I think PIL like having her around (another reason they regret making her marry) and in a way they're almost trying to ruin her marriage so she has to live at home permanently. They encourage her to stay there because she's still "too weak" from the birth to help with housework or look after her child so they say she shouldn't go to her husband's house. Maybe part of the reason they want us to live there is also to take on SIL when they're gone. DH and I worry about her a lot because she really is babied, she has no confidence because of this, she has little to no work experience - if PIL keep encouraging her to stay with them and not work or do anything then what will happen to her in the future, if her husband finally has enough, when they're not around anymore? She really won't be able to take care of herself and where she lives isn't the sort of place that it would be nice to be a single woman alone without family or money. I've said to DH in the past that PIL seem to want DH to treat SIL almost like his other wife and her child almost like her other child. They want her around because they like it and they know their behaviour will probably negatively impact her future so if they have US around too then we can pick up the pieces of this.

I've really never considered it like this and I do think that this is probably all happening on a subconscious level on their part - but I think it's definitely a possibility and I think I'll try those books!

"according to DH they have favoured SIL since childhood - I think this might be a cultural thing"

Well as I said in my post I don't think it is a cultural thing. I think it's a dysfunctional families thing.

You seem to be very focused on SIL and explaining how lazy she is to all of us. She is actually irrelevant, though. The point is your DH and his relationship with his parents. She shouldn't come into it, although of course in their minds (and probably his) she does, because she's the favoured child and is considered above all else.

(My DH is not Indian btw but his parents favour his SIL who is very self-absorbed.)

Cross post. Bloody hell, it worse than I thought! Your poor SIL. PILs sound awful tbh. SO controlling and manipulative

Hi OP, I don't have any real advice but I'm also married to an Indian man so really understand the clashes of culture. His family are wonderful and have welcomed me like their own daughter/sister but our world views are so different and always will be. There are big issues like you're talking about but also a thousand tiny issues. Things which on their own are so small they're almost irrelevant but put together they create a big chasm between us. One big thing was his widowed mother had an expectation that she'd live with us after we had kids (as you know it's the Indian way for a mother to live with her eldest son's family). Although I love her and I'd be genuinely be happy for her to live up the street I just wouldn't feel comfortable if she lived in the house. She never put pressure on us but I could see the devastation in her eyes when it dawned on her that this wouldn't be happening. It actually broke my heart. I can never be the Indian wife she'd like me to be. I can't change and be less western and they can't change and be less Indian (and I wouldn't want them to) . When you post about these problems on Mumsnet you'll always get an overwhelmingly British/ Western response. It's exactly the same when I talk to my friends about it. Like of course his family are "wrong" and of course you're "right" but I don't see either side as being wrong or right. It's just completely different views of life ingrained on us since birth. Once you've dealt with this issue there'll be something else. There always is.

I only mention SILs 'laziness' not to insult her. Honestly, I LOVE her. She's fab. She makes me laugh so much. We get on really well, speak regularly, and spend most of our time together when we visit.

I only brought it up to explain to a few posters who sort of jumped the gun and went straight to - poor SIL, her husband is abusing her, her PIL are probably cruel. Her life is NOT ideal and it's not what she deserves. But I think that the some posters were viewing SIL as a sort of Cinderella type at her PIL house, and so assuming that her presence at my PIL's house was like them 'saving' her from her cruel PIL and being worked to death or something. But this is very much not the case, as you have said yourself - I do think PIL want her at their house for their own benefit and they're not rescuing her from anyone! They're actually doing her more damage than good by behaving how they are.

However, it's similarly untrue that she is 'looking after' my PIL, like other posters suggested. I love SIL and I don't think she's to blame for any of this. I couldn't care less how much work or housework she does or doesn't do, these things don't interest me at all. But I do feel like it's relevant to mention just to put it into context of her relationship with PIL (which I think you have been right about).

Her husband is financially abusive, definitely.

And now...

Oh no not really. It's just cultural stuff. He doesn't give her money to live because she won't live where he wants her to.

Why did her parents marry her into a family who are so different to them? Why has she goe froma house with "help" to a house where the DIL has to do stuff?

SallyWD - thank you for your response! You've kind of confirmed that I knew but feared - that even is this problem blows over, there'll be something else. The two cultures are really just SO different. It's really hard. I couldn't live with anyone, not even my best friend! So I know exactly how you feel about your MIL and I can 100% imagine her reaction and feel my MIL soils react the same way. Do you all live in the UK? In a way we are either lucky or unlucky that PIL are still in India - it's lucky as some expectations are less realistic (like the idea of anyone moving in with us is simply not possible for visa issues) however also unlucky because the next assumption is that we should move back to india. I too don't think I can even be entirely how they'd like me to be, although I KNOW they do like me and they have always been kind to me. They like me for who I am but I really feel that at the same time they'd like me to conform more to their traditions. And if I'm honest I feel exactly the same about them - I really like them, but I wish some of these traditions didn't exist!

Look, you and DH want the best of both worlds. The security of a comfortable Indian family and the freedom of Western life.