To be shocked that a mother would clean for a 21 year old student?

[jennymanara]

A colleague at work was moaning on Monday that they were tired as they had driven many miles to their son's shared house, and spent hours thoroughly cleaning it, so he would get his deposit back. I was shocked. Surely a 21 year old man should be doing his own cleaning?

Negotiating the work with your flatmates is another skill that needs to be picked up. Helping 21 year old dcs do an ordinary adult task when they haven't even expressed a need for help doesn't help with self reliance. Having someone's back means you help if they really can't do it alone. You are telling them that it is better for you to spend say 10 hours (if 5 hour round trip and 5 hour clean) than for them to spend 5 hours, and on their own house.

I'm 46 and my parents did this for me when I was a student. They drove me over to Germany for my first job and helped me set up my flat. They helped me out in lots of ways over the years, and it had nothing to do with my age; I've helped them out with things too:

moving
cleaning
gardening
setting up computer/printer/phone
painting rooms
fitting carpets

I'm sure there's loads more; we've helped each other because that's what you do for family and close friends, isn't it?

Am end of tenancy clean is very different to coming round to do the cleaning. For example when I last moved - me,dh, dm, df plus dsil and dbro all were there cleaning and moving stuff

Oh I forgot to add she pops in every other week to change his bedding. I know she's itching to tell me to do it but I don't think she dares as she knows I'd just laugh at her.

He's not a student btw, he's "under pressure and he works" so she tells me

Atia, 4x£20 makes £80, or is my maths wrong. The bulk of the work is in kitchens and bathrooms. Professional cleaners are far faster. So yes a day for two students and two mums, including packing and taking stuff down the stairs seems about right.

But then I am quite happy to accept that I am a less good cleaner, a less good parent, and less willing to see DD spend my money on things she does not have to spend money on. (This is starting to have the feel of an HE thread where a small group of mums have these completely amazing children who sail into University, sail into jobs and are all round perfect because of their perfect parents.)

I am completely with CarolDanvers. I have lived in a number of countries and the British attitude is really very foreign to many. Families tend to be multi-generational units and expect to provide support to each other. Mental health problems amongst students. I wonder why. Is it because they are somehow expected to be completely self-sufficient and completely successful from the age of 18 on, and those that don't manage feel insufficient and have no one to turn to. Sure young adults should be expected to be gaining independence and taking responsibility. But that is not going to stop just because they were offered help. Come to think of it, I recently helped a recently bereaved friend clear her dads house. Perhaps I should have pointed out that she was 50, so capable of doing it herself, and that presumably my help was encouraging some form of moral weakness.

On the other hand....

I cleaned my house ready to leave at uni, when my dad came to move me he gave it a good clean.

It helped me understand the quality required and as such my previous houses have been of the same/similar standard.

I'm not an academic Need; I'm a retired business owner. And I have demonstrated to my children that I have their back in far more profound ways than cleaning up their flatmates' mess for them. And I'm sure they are aware of that.

But I have honestly never felt the slightest need to clean their houses for them. They are perfectly capable and fortunately have chosen flatmates who are equally capable and equally keen to get their deposits back.

I have just discussed this thread with DD2 and she laughed and pointed out that last time we picked her up from Uni (we didn't do so this year because she had her sister's car on loan) we went off to do a bit of sightseeing while she and her flatmates finished off.

There's plenty of doing nice things and helping each other out in our family. You clean up your own mess though.

Brilliant post @Needmoresleep

I hear ya Tinkly.

I think it's useful to remember that the notion of being an adult from the moment of your 18th birthday onwards is a legal construct in our particular society. That's it.

And beyond that were all different in what we can do, what we need help with, what we struggle with, how well we cope with stressful periods, how quickly we learn and adapt, what our priorities are...

Helping each other is a key part of being human, and it's more complex than simply whether or not somebody is physically or mentally capable of performing a task alone - or how many birthdays they've had.

Tinkly, your daughter may laugh about mine. I am very pleased for her. The reality is that students have to choose their second year flatmates within about six weeks of starting University.

Not much time to really work out who is capable and who is not. Two really reliable flatmates and one less so (in fact the one that DD did not know), but pleasant enough and not actively antisocial, seems to have been a good ratio.

Your daughter can presumably confirm that University timetables can be brutal. Certainly for DD who had a short break for exams and then full on teaching/placements right until the last day of term, with a move the following week. She did far more than I did, but I helped. They all got their full deposit back, which actually was reasonably uncommon - many letting agents seemed quick to find the slightest reason to make deductions.

But again I am happy to be told that I am doing it all wrong. It ought to be easy to spot MNetters and their DC from the aura of smugness that envelopes them.

Lawnmowing.... don't encourage me.

My mother would have done it for me, not sure I would do it for mine now :-), did some years ago, but I would be prepared to pay a cleaning agency to do it for them.

The last time I moved out of a rented property I was 37. My mum came to help me clean and we had a lovely day together. She was 72.

Need of course my daughter isn't laughing at yours; on the contrary she is probably envious of her ability to get someone else to clean up after her.

And I understand that choosing second year flatmates can be a bit of a lottery, which is why I used the word "fortunately".

And I'm far from smug; I have too much on my plate to be taking on other people's tasks and responsibilities.

Tinkly you are making it worse.

No my daughter does not have anyone to help clear up after her. Why would your daughter think that? DDs term finished on a Friday at the end of June, we go to a family event over the weekend, with DD and I going straight to her flat on the Tuesday evening and clean on Wednesday so that she can move on the Thursday morning when her tenancy ends. Bloody hard work, for her and me, on top of a long year. But needs must.

Perhaps it is because through her childhood, I as a landlord would call on her for help when a garden or attic needed clearing between one tenancy and another. Or even leave work, pick up kids from primary, rent a van, go to IKEA to buy a tenant furniture, unload it and get back home far too late on a school night. They were expected to muck in from an early age. I am happy to do the same. Which is why she is quite careful not to waste money through unnecessary deposit deductions. She knows that for a long time we did things ourselves because we could not afford to pay others.

If your daughter is not laughing at mine, who is she laughing at.

Need But your daughter has you to help her clean up. Though as you have now massively dripped, it seems to be something of a reciprocal arrangement.

My daughter was basically laughing at the very idea of me cleaning up after her and her flatmates. It is really not the sort of thing I do; I hate cleaning.

Maybe it's a fucking mess. Maybe his housemates are lazy entitled wankers who have left him to it. And she's helping because he's overwhelmed.

I hate cleaning so as much I would like to help them I would just pay towards a cleaner to do it.

I hasten to add I am happy to clean my own home just not someone else's but maybe I will when the time comes so long as all the other parents help out too.

It's not a massive drip.

DC and DH have always helped me, and I help them. I also help my mother even though she has never been willing to do much for me In the Easter when DS was revising for his AS levels he joined in clearing my mother's flat. He studied half the day, and, essentially, shifted furniture, the other half. It seemed obvious. We needed help. He helped us. DD needed help. I helped her. Over time she needs less help, so actually I enjoy being able to support her. (And whilst she is a student don't see why it would be better to pay someone to do her domestic stuff.) She is at home this week and cooked me lunch. But then I put her washing in the machine with ours.

Am I missing something?

I actually feel quite strongly that this is what families should do. Cultures, where families operate as strong social and economic units, tend to thrive. Raising kids in London is tough. We got through because we supported each other. (Quick flashback to the dim au pair who had to be guided round London by a 7 and 9 year old. The DC finally came to us with a proposal. If we got rid of the au pair they would get themselves home from school, and have a room each, though I think we opted for after-school club.)

It's good to see posts saying that helping family out is a good thing. So often on MN we read that once kids are 18 they should be on their own and that elderly parents should sort thinngs out for themselves unless they have severe dementia. A bit of a grim world where everyone has to be completely self sufficient. As long as it isn't all one sided helping each other out is great.

Very good point about choosing housemates Needmoresleep. Also, what looks a reasonable amount of mess in a massive kitchen in halls of residence with two sinks/two ovens/tons of work surface looks a damn sight worse in an average house kitchen (in what used to be a three bed terrace but landlord managed to add 4 more bedrooms via the loft/basement/extension)

It is a bit pathetic though. My parents did almost nothing for me and I'm glad, because it meant when they weren't around, I was used to doing the normal things to do with living alone myself. I do think its nice that some parents are really kind to their children, but overall, given the choice, I'd rather be independent because it makes life easier in the long run.

NeedMoreSleep I have lived in a number of countries and the British attitude is really very foreign to many. Families tend to be multi-generational units and expect to provide support to each other.

I went to university in The Netherlands, and students there are far more independent than in the UK. Moving flat by bicycle is not at all unusual - students either balance everything on top or hire a bike trailer, doing multiple loads. Mummies and daddies driving them and moving them in is very unusual. I mean I guess it must happen but I never saw it in the massive student housing complex I lived in. Dutch students are also a little more houseproud than British and stricter with their rules on noise enforcement, etc. and cleaning up after yourself goes along with all of that. My Erasmus student colleagues from all over Europe and South America were all also very independent. Never saw a parent in the whole year I shared a massive house with them, although the Italian girls did constantly tell me stories about how helpless Italian men were! The accommodation also isn't so strictly regulated as here, so we all had to do without all the nanny state enforcement type safety measures there are here, except fire safety ones, and we all survived!

Oh, and I still remember with shock and amusement the one that came to the university open day with his mother!

@Needmoresleep I don't think you need to explain yourself or your daughters situation anymore tbh.

That was a patronising and sneery little barb regarding her dd laughing at yours from @TinklyLittleLaugh there and I think it was meant to be. Sniggering at those silly plebs that can't manage for themselves and get parental help. It's quite clear even with the subsequent back tracking.

You sound lovely and so does your dd. Sometimes no explanation is warranted or deserved and I think this is one of those times.