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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To say No to holiday request

157 replies

mumto3boysHE · 13/07/2019 20:13

I run a small family business and have recently expanded enough to take on another member of staff. I could do with some advice please.

This new employee has just finished her 3 months probation. She's doing fine and I can see potential so am generally happy with her so far.

Her holidays are pro rata'd for this year and she has taken all of them already apart from 3 days booked for Christmas which is the same for everyone as we tend to shut down that week.

Now is the start of our busy season, the next 3 months can be a bit manic. In the past we've agreed holidays out of this season and our former employee had always been fine with taking holidays earlier or later in the year.

This year, because we have more staff, I agreed holidays during this period on the basis of only one off at a time and I've had to decline the odd day here and there for this employee because someone else was already off.

She's had 3 days off this week (holiday) and has just messaged me to ask for 2 weeks off unpaid at the end of July.

I get the UNPAID bit, but I have my part timer off at the same time so 2 days a week I'll be 2 people down.

AIBU to say no? And can you help me with some better wording please, rather than just saying absolutely not!

OP posts:
araiwa · 14/07/2019 08:38

I dont know why youre finding it hard to say no tbh

NauseousMum · 14/07/2019 09:23

Yanbu. Say no. She's being bloody cheeky knowing the policies.

We had a woman like this at my old job. Management always capitulated to her (until there was a new manager), which made the rest of us really resentful as we did stick to them since we knew the stress our colleagues would be under otherwise. A lot more staff left due to this behaviour.

I wonder if she will be like my excolleague and call in sick for a week when she was denied...

Rezie · 14/07/2019 09:33

Yes, you can say no. I'd make sure though that the rules are clear so employees know when it's not ok to request time off. If your rule is that only one persona can be off at the same time then you have to come up with a system where the requests are made early on or first come first serve basis.

TheHodgeoftheHedge · 14/07/2019 09:42

The more you post, the more it sounds like they’ve been allowed to utterly take the piss on their time off during their probation. Just say no - it is utterly reasonable to do so.

GoodbyeRosie · 14/07/2019 10:09

She's calling your bluff, I bet if you refuse it she will threaten to hand her notice in, giving you the decision to cave in to her or go through the hassle of quickly recruiting and training a new person.

My thoughts are you cannot allow this request, and if she leaves then you've dodged a bullet, as a decent member of staff would never consider asking for such an unreasonable accommodation.

Think of what message it sends out to other staff as well, the bad feeling it could cause.

Refuse this request point blank , and make it clear such a request was viewed in very by light and doesn't reflect well on her commitment as an employee.

Yabbers · 14/07/2019 10:33

that means she's used about 3 weeks holiday in her 3 month probation period?

What? How many holidays do you get??

sackrifice · 14/07/2019 10:55

You need to change your policy, to only allow accrued leave in the first year.

Which is usually 5.6 weeks leave over the first year, so pro-rata that so that they build up leave each month they work.

So usually, 2.5 days after the first month, 5 days after the second and so on.

Out of this of course comes bank holidays. So these get taken out for the year leaving the rest pro-rata-ed across the first year.

MummytoCSJH · 14/07/2019 11:09

I'm not sure I've ever heard of a workplace where you could get 2 weeks extra off just because it's unpaid. Maybe a few days in an emergency but otherwise, no? A lot of good replies in this thread. Her 'holidays' don't fit in with business need, so no she cannot take them, and if she just doesn't come in, she is breaching her contract and you can find someone new.

Rosemary46 · 14/07/2019 11:16

It’s not sick leave if she went to hospital with a relative. She should have taken annual leave or asked for it unpaid. I hope you didn’t give her sick pay?

She sounds like a bit of a nightmare TBH, I don’t think I’d want to keep her on.

Yabbers · 14/07/2019 11:36

If she’s better than the part timer than I would ask the part timer to reschedule part of their leave. If you really need all hands on deck during the busy period then cancel all holiday and have all hands on deck. Your policies as they stand won’t allow you to retain good young people who need flexibility.

What fresh hell is this? Cancel an already agreed leave in favour of a brand new employee who has used all of their leave in a probationary period? Because they apparently are young so need flexibility? Absolutely the worst advice for an employer.

WaterOffaDucksCrack · 14/07/2019 11:48

Your rules but you will find it hard to keep good staff with policies like this. Sorry but I disagree. I manage a small care home and we only take on and keep the best quality staff. We have leave policies such as this and no one has a problem because it's clear from interview stage and the same for everyone.

Also, giving people unpaid leave reduces the time other employees can get their paid leave in which means near the end of the leave year you'll have a nightmare trying to fit all the leave in.

My staff don't mind because I'll be as flexible as is possible given the environment we work in. If someone needs leave for a personal issue for example I'll find the cover or cover it myself.

gamerwidow · 14/07/2019 11:52

Just tell her no. It’s not an uncommon rule to require a minimum amount of staff at all times and if someone is already off that week then she can’t be off too.
Don’t ask her why she needs the holiday that just confuses the issue. You can either manage with her off or you can’t.

gamerwidow · 14/07/2019 11:56

If she’s better than the part timer than I would ask the part timer to reschedule part of their leave. If you really need all hands on deck during the busy period then cancel all holiday and have all hands on deck. Your policies as they stand won’t allow you to retain good young people who need flexibility.
Absolutely do not do this. You have to treat everyone with the same rules. It’s the only way to be fair and if you’re consistent noone can reasonably complain. If the rules are only one person off and leave is booked as first come first served then staff have to live with it. No one group is more deserving of flexibility than another.

Ellmau · 14/07/2019 11:59

Your rules but you will find it hard to keep good staff with policies like this.

It's the CF staff OP will have trouble keeping, not the good ones.

Anyway, I agree insofar as if you tell this employee they can't have the time off (which you should), you do have to be prepared for her to hand in her notice if she needs the time that much, and then you're understaffed anyway, for longer.

Depending on the job, is there any possibility of getting someone in as a casual/temp?

Otherwise, I think you have to say, "Sorry, NewEmployee, our leave policy is that only one member of staff can be off at once, and Other Employee has already booked that time, so you will be needed to cover." I wouldn't ask for reasons she wants it. If, unsolicited, she comes back with a genuine reason you might have to rethink, but do not suggest it at this stage. Just say no.

Nonnymum · 14/07/2019 12:02

You are not being unreasonable But If I was your employer I would probably start looking for another job so be prepared to loose her.

PancakeAndKeith · 14/07/2019 12:36

No amount of empathy justifies putting a business at risk!

So you wouldn’t allow someone time off when a family member dies or is seriously ill because it would put the business at risk?

ChristmasFluff · 14/07/2019 12:37

"Good staff" don't take the piss like this.

If this were a long-standing member of staff with a reliable track record, then I might feel in a quandry. But for someone who is new, has already been off sick and used up all their holiday, all within a few months? Nope, wouldn't hesitate for a second.

And if she left because of me saying no, I would consider it good riddance to bad rubbish

Original poster
mumto3boysHE · 14/07/2019 17:24

Just to update you all. I responded back with No, stating only one off at a time and mentioned how difficult it is if someone then calls in sick. Reiterated it's our busy season.
Got back a "ok, understood, no problem"

I'm going to start drafting a job advert, just in case, and I might have someone who can temp a little bit if needed.

She's blotted her copy book, that's for sure.

It's difficult as a small family business when you bring someone else in. Staff, as opposed to family, have to be treated differently, quite rightly, and I'm finding it difficult to get the correct balance. Things I might ask or expect from family are completely different for an employee.

It's a steep learning curve. We've introduced a contract but I might have to tweak it for the future.

MN at it's finest, thank you! You helped me articulate what I was feeling and gave me so many different points of view.

OP posts:
MT2017 · 14/07/2019 17:39

...and now we see if she calls in sick during the requested time!

Job as good idea Wink

MT2017 · 14/07/2019 17:40

ad bloomin predictive text

Sweetpea55 · 14/07/2019 18:25

Ask her to arrange cover with one of your other employees. Bet nobody will be keen to do this

RebootYourEngine · 14/07/2019 18:51

I would put money on her phoning in sick. If she does I would look at whether she is right for your business.

SandraOhshair · 14/07/2019 21:24

As well as tweaking the contract, also have a look at updating or creating an employee handbook. This is were all the non contractual stuff goes, but this way employees have something to refer to, and have a clear idea of the workplace expectations.
It could have things like the proceedure for calling in sick, booking holidays, bereavement leave, dress code etc. As you go along you can add to it.
But well done for dealing with potential cf employee.

PeoniesarePink · 14/07/2019 22:04

Just make sure you document the request for leave, as she may very well phone in sick if she's booked something.

Angech74 · 15/07/2019 14:05

Nope - you're NBU.

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