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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To say No to holiday request

157 replies

mumto3boysHE · 13/07/2019 20:13

I run a small family business and have recently expanded enough to take on another member of staff. I could do with some advice please.

This new employee has just finished her 3 months probation. She's doing fine and I can see potential so am generally happy with her so far.

Her holidays are pro rata'd for this year and she has taken all of them already apart from 3 days booked for Christmas which is the same for everyone as we tend to shut down that week.

Now is the start of our busy season, the next 3 months can be a bit manic. In the past we've agreed holidays out of this season and our former employee had always been fine with taking holidays earlier or later in the year.

This year, because we have more staff, I agreed holidays during this period on the basis of only one off at a time and I've had to decline the odd day here and there for this employee because someone else was already off.

She's had 3 days off this week (holiday) and has just messaged me to ask for 2 weeks off unpaid at the end of July.

I get the UNPAID bit, but I have my part timer off at the same time so 2 days a week I'll be 2 people down.

AIBU to say no? And can you help me with some better wording please, rather than just saying absolutely not!

OP posts:
Comefromaway · 13/07/2019 20:39

She has to have been employed there for more than a year before she can get parental leave.

PeoniesarePink · 13/07/2019 20:41

Red flag alert.

Someone who has used all their holiday and wants time off unpaid? They are going to be an ongoing nightmare to manage.

We have a strict policy of one off at a time in our small family business, and have a leave chart on the workshop wall so people can see who is off when before submitting a leave application. If it's been a family emergency or unavoidable, we've agreed it but that's only under exceptional circumstances.

You have to prioritise your workload, and also set a precedent for everyone else.

MsVestibule · 13/07/2019 20:46

But surely, even if you only give her the legal minimum holiday entitlement, that means she's used about 3 weeks holiday in her 3 month probation period? Why did you allow her to take so much in such a short time?

happygiraffey · 13/07/2019 20:51

I'm not sure I agree with the comments about it could cause a problem with keeping good employees, if someone fairly knew was trying to take this much time off, including unpaid time off, I'd be concerned that they were going to be a nuisance in the long run and potentially keep trying to disappear off on unpaid leave at inconvenient times and leaving you short staffed and having problems keeping the business going properly

DontDribbleOnTheCarpet · 13/07/2019 20:51

What response/action have you prepared when she tries to take the time off sick? It does sound like she has been on her best behaviour for the probationary period and now the gloves are off.
If she gets away with this, it will cause resentment and set a precedent. I'd be making absolutely sure that I knew my legal position and what I can do if she either claims to be sick or just doesn't turn up.
How quickly can you replace her if she quits because you won't agree to the time off?

underneaththeash · 13/07/2019 20:56

Just say no, we can't allow unpaid leave at this time of the year.

rookiemere · 13/07/2019 20:59

I would respond and say no because she has used all of her holiday allowance for this year. The rest is irrelevant to her circumstances.

Earlier in my career someone resigned from my team due to a holiday incident. We'd literally just given her the job - it was a good step up for her - and we really needed another pair of hands to get up to speed. Then she announced she wanted to take 3 weeks holiday in a months time because she'd seen a bargain. I told her that wasn't possible but as a concession she could take two weeks , even though wasn't hugely happy with that having just started the job. Well she went ahead and booked the 3 week trip, so she lost the role in the team. Harsh but there has to be respect and hard limits on both sides.

Drum2018 · 13/07/2019 21:06

Absolutely say no. However, be prepared for her to ring in sick for the 2 weeks. So between now and then do a bit of research about getting rid of her if she does that. She's taking the piss using her annual leave entitlement in 3 months and expecting more time off, regardless of it being unpaid.

Original poster
mumto3boysHE · 13/07/2019 21:06

Wow, so many replies so quickly, thank you. To answer a few points...
Her allowance this year is 15 days plus Bank Holidays, she's had 1 week off just before her probation finished, then the odd day here and there either side of a weekend etc, followed by 3 days this week.

Christmas is not a full shut down. In past years DH and I have covered it and given our (only) employee the option to work or not. It's always worked fine in the past so this employee was given that option as well and was happy to take 3 days at Christmas to have a whole week off. I suppose she could always ask to change that should she need time off before then (provided no one else is off at the same time)

The time she has asked for would start week after next, so yes, really short notice.

Am I allowed to ask if it's for an actual holiday or what she wants the time off for? Or is that considered intrusive?

OP posts:
marchez · 13/07/2019 21:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Durgasarrow · 13/07/2019 21:14

Her request is definitely unreasonable. I would not hesitate to tell her no.

oblada · 13/07/2019 21:19

Assuming she started in April and leave year is Jan-Dec her allowance is 21 days incl relevant bank holidays. Probably doesn't make much of a difference tho but best be accurate :)
She shouldn't have booked so many so quickly. She won't make it to the end of the year!

oblada · 13/07/2019 21:20

As for business closure and hols - that's perfectly fine and good practice OP I wouldn't worry about it!

ForalltheSaints · 13/07/2019 21:23

Have you a policy known about in advance? Yes
Have you a policy consistently applied? Yes
Is it consistent with the needs of the business? Yes
Are there other times of year where it is reasonable to have a holiday? Yes.

Perfectly reasonable to say no. Especially at about two weeks notice.

BellyAching19 · 13/07/2019 21:23

I’d just take it off anyway. Yabu. There is more to life than work

EB100 · 13/07/2019 21:24

My work does this - deduct 3 days for Christmas in advance. We think it's great that you get a 10 day break for only 3 leave days lost. Not sure about this employee's work ethic, as you would build up a good record first before you start requesting unpaid leave etc. She might need it for childcare but surely that is known in advance and should have been said at the start. Unpaid leave is not a right, and you may refuse on that alone. My company is very flexible and they would even frown at that (would be granted in extreme circumstances). But you have a leave allowance for a reason. How must a business function if everyone could just take unpaid leave whenever they want? Especially if all your leave was used, you could maybe ask for an unpaid day here or there as an emergency arises. Not trying to be rude but if she valued her job she would not even ask. And if it was an emergency (for me anyway, I would feel that I owe it to my boss to explain why).

lyralalala · 13/07/2019 21:25

Perfectly reasonable to say no.

That said I’d be preparing yourself for her to go off sick

Doilooklikeatourist · 13/07/2019 21:25

I’d say no to this request , it’s too short notice and it leaves you understaffed
However
Be prepared for her to phone in sick for 2 weeks

CuriousaboutSamphire · 13/07/2019 21:35

I do think it’s rubbish to make people use up annual leave at a time when the business is closed eg Christmas in this case, as they don’t have the option to work then. Where do some of you work? This is pretty standard across many sectors.

I’d just take it off anyway. Yabu. There is more to life than work Apart from "Cos I is speshul" what the hell is the justification for that? Rich mummy/daddy/husband/wife? Most people do have to earn a living to be able to , you know, literally live!

And yes, I'd be ready for her to go off sick. Then you can draw up her P45 and search for soeone new, more responsible, reliable. Which you may as well do anyway, she doesn't sound as though she would disagree with Bellyaching!

PancakeAndKeith · 13/07/2019 21:41

Why have you allowed her to book and take all her allowance so early on?

Well that is the employees problem.

shieldmaidenofrohan · 13/07/2019 21:48

Has she requested it as parental leave? Eg to cover childcare in holidays? Only mentioning as she does have the right to take so many weeks per year
Nope she doesn’t. There is no right to parental leave, many good employers offer emergency “dependants leave” to a maximum number of days when staff have reached a certain level of service - but this is not an additional perk to take 2 weeks every year on top of your leave. In my organisation (emergency services) you are allowed up to, I think, 12 days in a year but it must be an emergency and you are expected to resolved the matter and be back in work ASAP. It’s not a jolly.

CruellaFeinberg · 13/07/2019 21:51

she has requested holiday - and that's it "a request" - you can say no

"dear staff member - due to staff levels we can only have x number off at the same time. the weeks you want are already booked so we cannot authorise the time off"

its simple, in fact as an employer I think (armchair lawyer aka not qualified, just read it somewhere) you can even cancelled previously agreed leave. the employee needs to ask with twice as much notice as the leave (ie if she wants 2 weeks off, she needs to ask 4 weeks prior) - again, not a lawyer....

shieldmaidenofrohan · 13/07/2019 21:55

Ok it appears you are entitled to take unpaid parental leave for up to 4 weeks however this is after 1 years service. Paid leave is at the employers discretion though

TeacupDrama · 13/07/2019 21:56

Employees are entitled to holidays but they can be told when they are having them, there is no legal requirement for free choice, some small businesses with only 5 or so employees strictly enforce only 1 member of staff off at a time, other small businesses actually shut so everyone is off together there are numerous businesses that shut from Christmas Eve to 2nd January . For a small company involved in construction or manufacturing it probably works best for everyone to be off at once, others like retail or a dental practice needs someone available everyday except Christmas

flowery · 13/07/2019 21:57

”There is no right to parental leave, many good employers offer emergency “dependants leave” to a maximum number of days when staff have reached a certain level of service - but this is not an additional perk to take 2 weeks every year on top of your leave.”

If you are clueless about employment law, don’t start spouting advice on it (particular ‘correcting’ others) on the internet.

Statutory entitlement to up to four weeks a year parental leave

Statutory entitlement to emergency time off for dependants (ie not something offered by “good employers”)

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