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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To say No to holiday request

157 replies

mumto3boysHE · 13/07/2019 20:13

I run a small family business and have recently expanded enough to take on another member of staff. I could do with some advice please.

This new employee has just finished her 3 months probation. She's doing fine and I can see potential so am generally happy with her so far.

Her holidays are pro rata'd for this year and she has taken all of them already apart from 3 days booked for Christmas which is the same for everyone as we tend to shut down that week.

Now is the start of our busy season, the next 3 months can be a bit manic. In the past we've agreed holidays out of this season and our former employee had always been fine with taking holidays earlier or later in the year.

This year, because we have more staff, I agreed holidays during this period on the basis of only one off at a time and I've had to decline the odd day here and there for this employee because someone else was already off.

She's had 3 days off this week (holiday) and has just messaged me to ask for 2 weeks off unpaid at the end of July.

I get the UNPAID bit, but I have my part timer off at the same time so 2 days a week I'll be 2 people down.

AIBU to say no? And can you help me with some better wording please, rather than just saying absolutely not!

OP posts:
BoomBoomsCousin · 13/07/2019 22:35

She isn't entitled to parental leave as she hasn't been with you a year (and you can, in any case, delay most parental leave requests for business need - like staffing levels during a busy period). And this isn't an emergency as she knows about it in advance, so she isn't entitled to emergency time off for dependants. But those are just statutory requirements.

You, by the sounds of it, want to be accommodating to your employees within reason and I think that's a very sensible approach as an employer and decent way of treating other people. I would point out that you also need to be accommodating to your other employees (and, to an extent, yourself). Your employees who will be working during this period need care too - allowing planned staffing to drop below the level you know to be needed will put extra stress on them. There is also the potential for sickness or emergencies to crop up that could put you even further below required levels. Don't forget this - we get posters on here all the time who are driven to leave their places of employment because their jobs are made untenable by employers to accommodating unreliable employees.

I would decline on the basis that it breaks your staffing levels policy but say if there are extenuating circumstances to please come and see you.

If she came forward with reasons I would not be likely to approve the holiday unless it was for something like a very close relative getting suddenly sick (i.e. something recent, unexpected and that she couldn't have made arrangements for previously). I would be very reluctant to agree for childcare issues (first weeks of summer holidays would make me paranoid about this - if she can't work out reliable childcare she isn't going to be a reliable employee - but there are always some exceptions so if she can document being let down in the last few days and show why she can't make other arrangements I might be OK with it.

You do risk her leaving without notice, but an employee who can't/won't work during your busy period is probably one you'd be better off replacing anyway. Difficult to face that right as you enter that busy period, though.

Original poster
mumto3boysHE · 13/07/2019 22:38

She has more experience than the part timer, but started after them. But the part timer has had this time booked off for a while and is actually going away, all booked.

OP posts:
Original poster
mumto3boysHE · 13/07/2019 22:45

Another good point
"There is also the potential for sickness or emergencies to crop up that could put you even further below required levels."

She's also called in sick one day as her partner had to go to hospital for some potential bad news. We already had one employee off that day and it caused a lot of grief trying to cover everything or move things around.

OP posts:
TroubleWithNargles · 13/07/2019 22:48

We don't even know whether this employee has any children. Even if she does, she isn't entitled to take unpaid parental leave at the moment because (according to the link to the Gov.uk page provided by a pp above):
A - she hasn't worked there a year yet, and
B - you have to give 21 days notice, and she hasn't done that.

So no, she can't just ask for unpaid time off and expect to get it approved.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 13/07/2019 22:49

A holiday request is just that - a request. It doesn’t work for the company or for you to have two staff members off at the same time, and therefore it would be entirely reasonable to refuse the request.

Nothingcomesforfree · 13/07/2019 22:52

Lots of places have “blackout leave” where you can’t take time off. Schools in term time, event organisers at Christmas, ice cream shops in summer.
Frankly though,she’s going.Say no and get get ready to employ someone else.

Pollywollydoodah · 13/07/2019 23:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

barnyb · 13/07/2019 23:03

Normally companies iv worked for ask for a 12 week advanced request. Do you not have this in place ? To ask for two weeks off so soon is a little awkward. I would never expect that time off in short notice like that

Pollywollydoodah · 13/07/2019 23:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

flowery · 13/07/2019 23:05

”Can I then use this parental leave for childcare during holidays?”

@EB100 yes you can, assuming you meet the criteria in the link. Your employer has to grant your request for unpaid parental leave, which is designed for this type of scenario, unless it would cause significant disruption to the business, in which case they can postpone it.

EB100 · 13/07/2019 23:10

@flowery Thanks a lot. Worked for them 9 years and didn't know such a thing existed. Always took leave, even for emergencies or made the time up by working weekends etc. My daughter is grown but I have a young son so really useful to know.

LittleCandle · 13/07/2019 23:12

Definitely not unreasonable. One of my staff (I am the supervisor and approve holidays) asked for some time to be kept for when her daughter has a baby. I said no problem, but I had already booked holiday time off a couple of week after the due date, before the pregnancy was known about. Colleague wants to take leave if the baby is late and I am already away. We are a staff of three. I had to say that, in those circumstances, she might be able to have a day or perhaps two if the other staff member was able to cover. While we all are very flexible, the only instance in which one staff member would cover all the shifts if someone was on holiday is in the case of illness. Unconvinced, my colleague rang HR, who told her word for word what I had already said. There was a suggestion (from colleague) that perhaps I could push back the already booked and paid for holiday, that also incorporates a family wedding. That was a flat 'no' too!

Your employee knows how much leave she has for the year and that's the end of it. If she wants unpaid leave later in the year, well, it would be considered at the time.

SusieOwl4 · 13/07/2019 23:22

do you not have a staff handbook or your requirements written into your contracts ?

Weezol · 13/07/2019 23:37

It doesn't matter why she wants it. Don't get into it. She's an employee not a friend.

She's asked, say no - that's all you need to do.

notapizzaeater · 13/07/2019 23:40

Agree, all you need to say is no. She's asked, you can't. End of !

Teddybear45 · 13/07/2019 23:47

Next year I suggest you make it clear to everyone that no holiday is to be booked during your busy period. It’s ridiculous that being so short staffed you’ve allowed it.

DidUReallyJustSayThat · 14/07/2019 00:02

Is unpaid leave a regular thing at your company? If not then be prepared for it to be if you grant it as everyone else will see that they can take it as well.

MT2017 · 14/07/2019 00:07

I do think it’s rubbish to make people use up annual leave at a time when the business is closed eg Christmas in this case, as they don’t have the option to work then.

Like schools?

k1233 · 14/07/2019 00:34

You need to speak to your employee and enquire why she wants the time off. She's only been there 3 months, so wasn't able to negotiate her leave in advance as other employees have pre-booked theirs. As a compromise, can she have the two weeks but come in for the days the part timer would have been there - so two days a week for the fortnight? She'd still get three days a week off, which might be better than nothing depending on why she needs the leave.

k1233 · 14/07/2019 00:38

I think it does matter why she wants it. If her husband is poorly (as indicated above) and needs to go for tests etc, then she'll want to go with him to support. If she's getting surgery, she'll need the time off. Etc etc You can't just assume it's a holiday or something unimportant. She knows it's the busy time, she knows the rules around leave but she's requested it anyway. Find out why and then give a considered reply.

Summery1 · 14/07/2019 00:44

Unpaid leave doesn't accumulate AL, so would her 15 day entitlement reduce?

I'd read up on employment law, because it sounds like this employee will puch as much as possible.

AnAC12UCOinanOCG · 14/07/2019 01:04

Am I allowed to ask if it's for an actual holiday or what she wants the time off for? Or is that considered intrusive?

Why does it matter? Either you can do without her or you can't.

PancakeAndKeith · 14/07/2019 07:29

Why does it matter? Either you can do without her or you can't.

It matters hugely. If she needs the time because her husband is gravely ill as suggested up thread or some other serious issue then you’d let her go and cope.

If it’s because she fancies two weeks on the beach then no.

Upanddownandroundagain · 14/07/2019 08:12

She's also called in sick one day as her partner had to go to hospital for some potential bad news.

I feel for her, but she wasn’t actually sick - surely this should have been a days leave or unpaid leave?

I suspect this employee is going to be trouble. It might be that she doesn’t ‘need’ to work - after all, she can afford to take two week unpaid leave - so might push the boundaries a bit. I’d be wary. And I wouldn’t accept this request, it’s against your clear rules.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 14/07/2019 08:19

It matters hugely. If she needs the time because her husband is gravely ill as suggested up thread or some other serious issue then you’d let her go and cope The point the EMPLOYER is trying to clarify is how much they HAVE to let this effect their business.

Letting her go and coping is often absolutely impossible in small businesses. What you are saying, and this employee is asking, is to endanger the business as a whole without demur!

Of course an employer, and other employees, are going to ask why they should be put at risk?

As it stands this woman has little or no employment protection, due to time in the post etc. So OP can, and in my opinion should, let her go and find someone else. She is going to have to cover a lot of 'holiday' anyway!

It's not that I don't have sympathy with her but had she been more up front with OP there may have been a different outcome. But her actions are untenable! No amount of empathy justifies putting a business at risk!