To think I’ve done nothing wrong?

[YouDoYou18]

Background - Currently on Maternity leave for my DD, 29 weeks pregnant so will be going onto another Maternity leave straight after

I was talking to a close friend yesterday about how my work has sent over the details for the reward day this year and how I’m sad to be missing it as it sounds really good, she replied with it’s very nice of them to offer considering you won’t be working for them and I simply said they probably do just because I’m still employed, even while on maternity leave.

The reply I got was Eh? You didn’t go back after maternity leave. To which I responded that I’m still on maternity leave and will be rolling into another maternity leave but still employed. The response I got was Fucking hell you work for a fucking good company as I had to be back a year before I could have another baby. I said it was illegal to not allow someone a second maternity leave, it’s just that you have to claim maternity allowance instead of SMP.

She then started questioning what the point in me even being employed was, to which I said holiday, continuous employment on my cv and the ability to go back, at which point she informed me that ‘it’s no surprise you’re not entitled to any benefits’. And has now completely stopped talking to me.

Somewhere in the conversation I appear to have pissed her off but I have no clue when?? I don’t think I’ve done anything wrong in keeping my job, and I’ve not been declaring that I should be entitled to benefits, I’ve just recently been worrying about not being able to get any help with childcare when I do get back.. AIBU?

I’m always struck by the contrast between how things ought to be, and how they are.

I’m a contractor in one of the professions. I often do maternity cover for senior roles. Whilst I’m supportive of women taking maternity leave and carrying on their careers, I am regularly taken aback by the attitude of the men.

When a colleague speculated that the lady I was covering for might have a second child not long after her first, our senior (male) manager said, “she better bloody hadn’t”.

We both laughed, thinking that he was joking. No. He said, “I’m serious. She better bloody hadn’t if she values her job.”

So she was expected to plan her family around her job and leave a nice long gap between kids. Her manager had four kids: I wonder whether he expected that his wife should put up with the same behaviour from her employer?

Knowing this, it would take a brave woman to defy expectations.

Can anyone tell me what employers are obliged to pay in the second leave?

The employer may not be paying maternity pay for the second period if the OP doesn’t qualify, but there are still costs associated with maintaining the employment including the right to accrue annual leave as though they were at work and right to all contractual benefits such as company care or allowances, healthcare, bonus etc.

Good point. Ive had to take days off for my child being ill. One man (not my boss) commented about it in the sense that "it shouldn't be allowed"

I asked him how many times hed had to leave work because his children (3) had been ill. 0. Not once in 20 odd years.

I asked how his wife would feel if her employer (and she is employed) had the same attitude as him. He didnt answer that funilly enough.

Stealth. Entitlement to SMP is the same for the second period of maternity but the ‘average weekly earnings’ will essentially be based on basic maternity pay (or zero pay if the employee has taken unpaid maternity at the end). The employee may also not have earned enough to qualify for SMP by the second period, so it’s pretty unusual for someone to be entitled to two back to back periods of paid leave unless they’ve taken very minimal leave/pay in the first instance.

Dorset, I'm asking one of the people who have complained about having to pay for the second of these to explain what they've paid. My understanding is the same as yours.

Regarding the small businesses, it's not necessarily about the money.
Often an independent business might be quite niche with specialised or diverse skill sets which are not easy to replace especially temporarily.

Stealth. But as I previously posted, costs to the employer aren’t just for actual maternity pay. There is most definitely a cost to the employer for maintaining the employment during both periods of maternity and I can understand that particularly for SME businesses the additional cost on top of having to pay for temporary cover can be difficult.

So have any of the people complaining on this thread paid those costs?

JoanMavis Cannot see your point. Why would it be considered a lucky escape?? She did not come back to work as promised and left a small firm (5 people) paying her way and then let them down!

Stealth. My organisation had exactly this situation. The employee didn’t return from the second period of maternity and never had any intention of doing so as they openly told us that.

She no longer has to work for an employer who doesnt give a shiny shit about womens rights and think they have some say in when they should reproduce?

Your employee did nothing wrong. She didnt have to promise you anything and if you took it as gospel more fool you!

How did you "pay her way" exactly?

You haven’t done anything wrong legally but to be fair you couldn’t even go back to work for a short period of time before you’d got up the duff again. You’re an employers nightmare.

Joan. I’m not saying I agree but can you not see how an employee who ‘doesn’t have to promise you anything’ might make an employer less keen to employ them?

No employee has to promise an employer they will do anything thats not in their contract.

If employers want "promises" they need to have them in watertight contracts, however with contacts so ridiculous i can imagine they wouldn't attract many employees.

What’s unfair is the inequality of maternity pay offered to women. There is such a discrepancy between different sectors and different employment contracts.

OP- you must realise that you are very fortunate compared to women on zero hours contracts or who get very little other than the statutory minimum entitlements.

Is it possible you were condescending or dismissive of her surprise that you are entitled to two maternity packages back to back?

Has op actually said she got enhanced maternity packages?

She might have got bog standard smp

I think that employees do have a basic requirement to be reasonable though and act with integrity. Whilst something may be legal it doesn’t necessarily make it morally right in all circumstances.

For example, if an employee exercises their right to back to back maternity in full knowledge that they won’t be returning and that the cost of maintaining their employment to a small employer might make it impossible for them to replace on the same hours and therefore impact on other colleagues or the viability of the business, I personally would find it difficult to agree that’s fine just because legally they’re entitled to do it.

JoanMavis I think you would make your point better if you didn't use foul language! Your have no idea what my husband's ideas on women's rights were since you didn't meet him. I am referring to a few years back when he started a tiny firm with a workforce of five. He liked the woman and thought her word was her bond. He wasn't a fool - far from it - but kept his word when dealing with people and trusted her to do the same. Nothing was in writing but, as I said, he liked and trusted her.

I just have bog standard SMP, my place of work is more than happy for both my situation and theirs because they already have my replacement who’s just staying on!

Surely it’s far better for organisations for women to take two consecutive spells of maternity leave. They save recruitment, induction and training costs if they can retain the person hired to cover the first maternity leave and reduce disruption to productivity and others in the team. Plus as discussed in the thread the maternity salary costs are less in the second spell.

I’ve had two separate spells of mat leave and I think that’s been far more disruptive and costly for my org even though I returned for two years in the middle.

Theres nothing morally wrong about not returning to work after 2 babies. How many women intend to return and dont? how many intend to stay at home and then actually decide to go back?

Youre entirely deluded if you expect any pregnant women to be able to tell you for definite their plans for work after their baby. Youre even more deluded if you think their loyalty should lie with their employer over their own family.

Employers do not have to offer enhanced packages and if they do they can stipulate that the woman has to return.

If they only pay smp they cannot stipulate this and rightly so.

If a small employer cannot handle maternity leave that is their issue to sort.

He liked the woman and thought her word was her bond. He wasn't a fool - far from it - but kept his word when dealing with people and trusted her to do the same. Nothing was in writing but, as I said, he liked and trusted her

That is foolish though isnt it. She was his employee not his mate.

Sorry OP- I made a big presumption there. It was the only situation I could think of as why someone would get the hump.

@lemonsandlimes123

Well said , my view exactly. What is 'legal' and what sits well with people are sadly often not the same thing. I confess that I would be slightly miffed even while acknowledging her right to do this.