12th of July

[starbuckslover]

Apologies for posting this in AIBU, I was sure where to put it but..

AIBU form not understanding why people in Northern Ireland still celebrate the 12th of July (and the 11th night), in such an epic fashion? A country that voted for and signed the Good Friday Agreement, begging for peace to then light bonfires burning Irish flags, and marching gleefully in memory of a war that resulted in the death and oppression of goodness knows how many Catholics, is more than a little hypocritical?

How can this still be happening? I know people who are so anxious about brexit as it could upset the peace process who are out watching the marches today..how?!

Also, most place in NI are integrated now so Protestant and Catholic people are living as neighbours. How can these Protestant people go to parades that celebrate their neighbour's persecution...

I would fee the same if there were catholic parades for the same thing...so I am really not on one side or the other.

If anyone can help me to understand how such a huge group of (many) educated, sensible people (I know lots aren't, but many are normal everyday, semi-liberal citizens), can be so hypocritical I would be very grateful...🤷‍♀️

@anothernamechange123 out of interest and please don't think me rude I'm genuinely interested ?what would be so bad about an United ireland? Completely innocent question without bias

I'm both British and Irish

That's actually how I feel too.

Posters in this thread who've made gigantic assumptions, called me a bigot etc because I tried to explain how unionists here seem to see/feel about the tricolour (in comparison to how folks from the Republic who have never been subjected to the troubles think they see it) ... Just show how ignorant and bigoted they are themselves.

Unionist with an Irish passports here! Kids born there, lived and paid taxes there for 15 years but moved since.

Thoroughly embarrassed to be associated with the blatant orange sectarianism (many in SF are similar though). Politically the system in NI is a basket case welfare state. Fingers crossed in hope for the future of a beautiful place.

the fear of a united ireland and becoming second class citizens

Or, just possibly, fear that the unjustified Protestant privilege will come to an end.

Thinking about housing, schooling and jobs.

Fat chance, with the 'confidence and supply Agreement' in Westminster

The part that I find really most difficult to understand about marches are the marches along contentious routes. I know of requests for marches in London which have been refused permission to take place because they are contentious. Yet in NI there are marches are held precisely because the route is contentious. Pah.

I know two men born and bred in NI. One university educated teacher, very articulate, clever person. The other left school as early as possible, manual job no real outside interests.

Guess which one of them joined the Orange Order & marches with enthusiasm and which one of them keeps well clear?

It may be complicated but some parts of this divide are really very simple.

Lot of shite being talked here generally, but I just want to particularly comment on the OP's first post about most of NI now being integrated. And you say you're from NI?! That is completely untrue, the complete opposite is the case - most still live in segregated communities, and only the minority of schools are integrated. Please take your goady bollocks elsewhere.

@Moralitym1n1 - Posters in this thread who've made gigantic assumptions, called me a bigot etc

Someone who, as you did, makes a statement like Anyone who feels they're Irish, should perhaps move out of the United Kingdom., has to expect to be called a bigot.

@Moralitym1n1 yes you said you lived in Derry/Londonderry then again in another post you said Derry

What? What do you mean by that?

I skipped across it to be fair as the statements blatantly indicated your forgive my retort "side"

You studied Irish history, lived in Derry/Londonderry but your comment and alliance is not neutral as your education should have taught you fact and information, your very one sided, you refute anything to do with the republi

Like I said history is for the books not the streets,

And on that note I bow out of this very interesting conversation but I fear we could argue and debate. for years to come without resolve*

Sorry I genuinely can't follow what you're trying to say in several parts of this post.

(And I have no idea why you're pointing out that I used Derry/Londonderry in one post and only Derry in another ...).

Morality - re "moving out of the UK" - you do understand that my Irish catholic family descends from ulster and predates any joining of your union? Why the fuck should we leave the areas we've lived in for hundreds of years? I'm married to a northern Irish Protestant - thank goodness he doesn't hold these same, bigoted, sectarian views. Hopefully you're part of a dying breed.

poster diaduittoyou, you are right. Many of the posters here don’t have a clue. But it’s so easy to spot and ignore. Relax :)

@FinallyHere I can see pros and cons too it I suppose, both sides of the border have some Great factors

The social welfare system in the south far surpasses the north/English system,

But otherside of the coin I would rather have the amazing NHS than the HSE

Someone who, as you did, makes a statement like Anyone who feels they're Irish, should perhaps move out of the United Kingdom., has to expect to be called a bigot.

I find it bizarre (and hypocritical) that someone would live in a state, take advantage of its benefits etc. while actively declaring that they wish to see it dissolved.

I pointed out that England's activities in Scotland could easily have had such an impact before Culloden and the union. You were incorrect.

Can you point me in the direction of any historical evidence to support your contention that the Scottish planters in Ulster were fleeing persecution/illtreatment from the English? The vast majority of the pre-Cromwellian and pre-Williamite planters were Lowland Scots, from a settled and peaceable part of James’s Scottish kingdom. And they were granted land by the Crown - hardly likely for those at odds with the political regime.

finallyhere

Yes, in an ideal world the Orange Order would just march round their own front rooms shouting their bigotry and leave other peace loving people to get on with their lives. However, they only get off on antagonising and goading others and in doing that make themselves feel relevant. Utterly provocative behaviour.

I spent quite a bit of my life in a rabidly sectarian part of Scotland.
The Orange marches through my town were intimidating and scary.
No Irish history of opression/planting/troubles there. So no excuse - just pure bigotry.

As a matter of interest on the odd occasion I got off the bus in the town when coming home from school I was regularly taunted and jeered at, and once pelted with stones (Catholic school uniform).

I am reliably informed it is no better now.

What really is the point of all this?

@Moralitym1n1 so then where is your choice of place to live? Ireland or England?

rumboogie

There is no point. Bigotry, sectarianism, racism and hatred doesn't need a reason - just a vacant head to take root in!

@StoneofDestiny spot on, not a truer word said,

Aye, complete sense, morality. Makes absolute sense to move from the county of my family's descent over multiple generations. Face it - you're talking absolute bollocks as pointed out in several posts. Keep taking the tablets - you may need a higher dose when the vote eventually comes

@Moralitym1n1 so then where is your choice of place to live? Ireland or England?

Why would I have to lice in England when the state of Northern Ireland, founded in 1921, is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland (as you'll see on the front of any British passport).

It beggars belief really, yep I will move my family from the land it has owned for centuries just because Some idiot on Mumsnet says I can’t be Irish if I live in Northern IRELAND

I am the product of a mixed marriage and spent a few years living in N.I in my twenties and had 1 child born there, i now live in SW Scotland where we also have the marching season. I have heard the usual " rubbish from both sides i.e "the only good catholic is dead cathollic" and " all protestants are dead men walking" The hatred is much less than what it used to be and most people are decent and want nothing to do with any of it

@diaduittoyou

Well it's nice that you're such a "pragmatist" the you live in a country you don't agree with, pay it taxes, take its benefits like the NHS etc. while wishing for its destruction.

And where would I get the tablets luv? The republics a recovering bankrupt mess with a shit healthcare system.

I find it bizarre (and hypocritical) that someone would live in a state, take advantage of its benefits etc. while actively declaring that they wish to see it dissolved

I find it amazing any 'historian' could say that! Boundaries change all the time - look at the USSR, E and W Germany, Brexit, the move for independence in Spain, Wales, Scotland - to name a few.
Citizens don't just 'take advantage of benefits', they contribute to their countries and have ever democratic right to determine who governs them
Unfortunately, as any a Historian knows, NI had thwarted this for its citizens through 'gerrymandering' for decades - denying its citizens full civil rights.
The right to self determination is just that - a right! People have every right to contribute politically to the debate, not just 'leave the country of their birth' and deny themselves the right.