12th of July

[starbuckslover]

Apologies for posting this in AIBU, I was sure where to put it but..

AIBU form not understanding why people in Northern Ireland still celebrate the 12th of July (and the 11th night), in such an epic fashion? A country that voted for and signed the Good Friday Agreement, begging for peace to then light bonfires burning Irish flags, and marching gleefully in memory of a war that resulted in the death and oppression of goodness knows how many Catholics, is more than a little hypocritical?

How can this still be happening? I know people who are so anxious about brexit as it could upset the peace process who are out watching the marches today..how?!

Also, most place in NI are integrated now so Protestant and Catholic people are living as neighbours. How can these Protestant people go to parades that celebrate their neighbour's persecution...

I would fee the same if there were catholic parades for the same thing...so I am really not on one side or the other.

If anyone can help me to understand how such a huge group of (many) educated, sensible people (I know lots aren't, but many are normal everyday, semi-liberal citizens), can be so hypocritical I would be very grateful...🤷‍♀️

Protestant from NI living elsewhere right now. The environment is toxic this time of year. Full of sectarianism (both sides) ... but the Orange Order do excel! I’m a unionist, but dismayed at the political system there ... but we elect them.

After schoolworry, that’s a fairly accurate description of many of the marchers. You forgot uneducated and underemployed too. I’ll remain a unionist though.

As for the Good Friday agreement, many people did not and do not support it.

71% in favour in NI, on an 81% turnout. That’s an overwhelming majority.

Rather different to 52%.

That Irish history degree isn’t serving you too well, is it?

@Crocodilesoup I have explained clearly why it is banned. And this particular rule makes sense when you think about the objective behind it.

And that objective is to perpetuate sectarianism and bigotry and mitigate any risk of fraternising at all with “filthy Taigs”.

As they say in Belfast: do you think I came up the Lagan in a bubble?

@ceilihouse

Are you even reading my posts?

I grew up in Derry during the troubles, and have lived here for most of my life.

My understanding is not from books ( though I do have a degree in history and politics).

Shamefully and shockingly Arlene Foster had the audacity to want to lead an Orange Parade in Scotland - bringing her sectarian politics over the water. She cannot even get a democratic government functioning in the province of NI, but she can join the other Neanderthals parading hate through the streets. Worse still - she has been 'bought off' to prop up the Tory Government in having a disproportionate say in how the UK is run.........can't run a province, but can have a say over the UK! A total disgrace.

@Moralitym1n1 I actually live in the uk and have done for years, I own a business here, and outside my hotel doors sport the tricolour, the Union Jack, the welsh and the Scottish flag,

They represent my customers, my staff, biases of none, all hang proudly,

And as for going home? I'd bloody love too one day, but Brexit will fuck that I'll. ever subject my children to the life I lived as a child, brexit will resurrect the troubles and I neither want to see the IRA or the soldiers back

@StoneofDestiny can't run a province, but can have a say over the UK! A total disgrace.

Damn right. What are all those tits up on the Hill doing? Fuck all! Are they still getting paid in some shape or form?

An absolute, unmitigated DISGRACE.

@AgileLass

As good as your Scottish history, eh?

Also that's still a significant no of people who didn't support the agreement.

Also no, my history &politics degree 1994-7 wouldn't have covered the an agreement in the future, so it would be down to me personally following and remembering the percentages at that time.

Do you want to have any more cracks about my history degree - you've made - what, 3 so far? But by all means continue, you clearly like to make the same jab over and over and over again ....

But funnily enough not respond to my point that your knowledge of Scottish history is so poor that you believe nothing negative would've affected Scottish people from Britain's hand unril the union.

Ironically, the tricolor was designed to bring both sides - green and orange - together

Usually when it's flown in NI it's a sign of intimidation, not celebration. I hate to see tricolors flying as I feel a bit threatened. Equally I hate seeing loyalist flags and even the Union Jack being flown. I think the flying of all flags in NI should be banned.

On another note, I'm a Unionist. I'm also Irish and have an Irish passport. It's possible it be both. I'm both British and Irish. Our history and identity in NI is complex and multilayered.

Old historical tropes are often wrong. For example, the first Planters spoke Gaelic. Most Protestants and Catholics here can legitimately describe themselves as descending from the Celts or being Celtic. Even though at one time Gaelic was our common language, Ulster-Scots is also a legitimate dialect and even has its own small canon of literature. As I said, complex.

To an extent it seems its ok to talk about unionists as knuckle dragging uncultured types and republicans as romantic freedom fighters. Its bullshit.

It's not the same as burning just any flag.

Burning the Irish flag on this day is literally a celebration of the oppression of the Irish people who have been subjected to colonialism and degredation by the English for hundreds of years....

Tasteless at best surely

@ceilihouse

You appear to be having a conversation with yourself.

And you haven't made the slightest acknowledgement that you were totally wrong in stating that you've "lived the troubles" while my knowledge was 'book learning'; when I'd said earlier in the thread and have now reiterated I grew up in a flash point during the troubles myself.

To an extent it seems its ok to talk about unionists as knuckle dragging uncultured types and republicans as romantic freedom fighters

This is true. When the reality is there are bigots and uneducated fools in equal measure on both sides.

But funnily enough not respond to my point that your knowledge of Scottish history is so poor that you believe nothing negative would've affected Scottish people from Britain's hand unril the union.

What is this “Britain” you speak of? It doesn’t exist until 1707. You’re not exactly filling me with confidence about your scintillating Scottish History knowledge.

Sorry to burst your bubble of self-righteousness, but if you care to scroll back you will see that I did not state “nothing negative would've affected Scottish people from Britain's hand unril the union“; that’s pure invention on your part.

But please don’t let me distract you from your fulminations about how anyone with an Irish nationalist identity should leave NI. It’s awfully revealing of your outdated mentality.

Burning the Irish flag on this day is literally a celebration of the oppression of the Irish people who have been subjected to colonialism and degredation by the English for hundreds of years....

Actually, no, that's not how loyalists will see it. They see it as burning the flag of the Republic because they are loyal to the a United Kingdom and they don't want a united Ireland. Its political, not historical.

@PierreBezukov

You're right, it's very complex, like most things if you get into them.

I have to say I don't know any other unionists who have an Irish passport (out of principle) though I think Brexit may change that.

I had an Irish passport long before Brexit. I am proud of my dual nationality

Actually yes, in my opinion. No interest in how others may justify the above.

most of them don't even know the relevance to the fires and the flag burning, but participate only to cause trouble and harm,

This.

piglet89 NI enjoys the fame of having the worlds longest period for a country in peacetime of having no functioning government. The government 'members' had a pay cut after 20 months of doing nothing to about £35,000 pa!
Yet - the DUP are thought fit by the Tory Party to keep them in power. Shameless.

@PierreBezukov You are right.

What is this “Britain” you speak of? It doesn’t exist until 1707

I couldn't rememberbfir certain what the entity combining England and Wales was called until I checked it just now. I thought there may have been a reflection of the ... absorbtion/conquering of Wales in the name but no, it seems it was still just called the "Kingdom of England" until the 'union' with Scotland.

But in any case you know you're being pedantic for the sake of it; England has always been the dominant, absorbing country in Britain/Great Britain so it would be a fair assumption to take it to mean England (and Wales) pre union with Scotland.

@Moralitym1n1 yes you said you lived in Derry/Londonderry then again in another post you said Derry,

I skipped across it to be fair as the statements blatantly indicated your forgive my retort "side"

You studied Irish history, lived in Derry/Londonderry but your comment and alliance is not neutral as your education should have taught you fact and information, your very one sided, you refute anything to do with the republic, catholics etc,

Like I said history is for the books not the streets,

And on that note I bow out of this very interesting conversation but I fear we could argue and debate. for years to come without resolve

Goodnight ladies x

Belfast resident here.
This time of year really brings out the worst in many people here.
I drove through the city centre earlier and t was like a scene from the apocalypse. Rubbish everywhere, broken bottles, cans, fast food rubbish. I felt very unwelcome and uncomfortable in my very own city.
It's a hate filled show where the loyalist population beat their chests and Mark their territory.
Working class Protestants largely feel insecure and threatened. They fear a United ireland which is closer now than it has been for over a hundred years

Sorry to burst your bubble of self-righteousness, but if you care to scroll back you will see that I did not state “nothing negative would've affected Scottish people from Britain's hand unril the union“; that’s pure invention on your part.

I'm not the only one with a bubble of self righteousness.

You derided that England's actions in Scotland could have influenced Scottish emigrants to Ireland because the plantation happened before the union of England and Scotland; I pointed out that England's activities in Scotland could easily have had such an impact before Culloden and the union. You were incorrect.