12th of July

[starbuckslover]

Apologies for posting this in AIBU, I was sure where to put it but..

AIBU form not understanding why people in Northern Ireland still celebrate the 12th of July (and the 11th night), in such an epic fashion? A country that voted for and signed the Good Friday Agreement, begging for peace to then light bonfires burning Irish flags, and marching gleefully in memory of a war that resulted in the death and oppression of goodness knows how many Catholics, is more than a little hypocritical?

How can this still be happening? I know people who are so anxious about brexit as it could upset the peace process who are out watching the marches today..how?!

Also, most place in NI are integrated now so Protestant and Catholic people are living as neighbours. How can these Protestant people go to parades that celebrate their neighbour's persecution...

I would fee the same if there were catholic parades for the same thing...so I am really not on one side or the other.

If anyone can help me to understand how such a huge group of (many) educated, sensible people (I know lots aren't, but many are normal everyday, semi-liberal citizens), can be so hypocritical I would be very grateful...🤷‍♀️

It’s been funny catching up and reading some of the posts, especially morality ... LOL.

The football thing is interesting. My brother won three league titles with Linfield (yes... I know they won so many!). Many of the supporters are toxic, tribal, etc. We’d go to their games whenever home. But also many open progressive supporters and contributors/volunteers in the club too. I don’t follow the rugby or know the GAA, but the contrast in the behaviour of the supporters in striking.

... and to be honest even today, after checking the Linfield result the next thing I check is to see/hope Glentoran have lost.

@Morgan12 you make it sound as if it’s only the rangers fans........

Hatred is ripe on both sides.

Pathetic all of it.

Try living in the West of Scotland where half the people wearing Rangers tops walking behind the orange order haven't even got a fucking clue about any of it. It's hardly ever about history here. It's about hatred.

It absolutely is. To the point where a minister who barred the OO from his church for refusing to remove their hats and lower their flags received death threats and an Osman warning from the police with regards to loyalist paramilitaries.

The minister's reasoning was that if they were truly protestants, they'd respect that it was god's house they wished to enter and not an appropriate place for a show of force.

They refused, and instead threatened him, calling in favours from their friends.

How do I know?

He's my dad. And I'm fucking proud of him.

Hatred is ripe on both sides

You're absolutely right. I hate the Hibs marches too.

But let's not pretend that they're on anything like the scale of the OO.

38 streets in Glasgow closed last weekend to let the OO go for a fucking walk.

They only recently capitulated on their demands to walk past St Alphonsus on London Road, despite one of their acolytes being jailed for assaulting the priest last year. They demanded, repeatedly, the right to march past a chapel while mass was happening. Glasgow city council blocked their attempts.

Oh and the OO in NI have used their friends in the DUP (Foster is a member) to try to reinstate their "right" to march back up Garvaghy Road. Now why would they want to do that? Hmm.

Regulatory lawyer back again, @Moralitym1n1

Irish people in the North...
If they were born in Northern Ireland, they're Northern Irish. They can call themselves Irish but they're actually living in the state of Northern Ireland; so what does it a actually mean. If they want to be "Irish" so badly, why not move to the republic of Ireland until "the vote that's coming" dissolved Northern Ireland. I just don't get the hypocrisy.

Let’s dust off the law on this, shall we? You’ve not fared that well with the history (in which you claim to specialise), so I imagine I’ll wipe the floor with you when it comes to the law.

Legally, there is no such nationality as “Northern Irish”. That’s something you’ve just made up to suit your narrative.

The law governing citizenship in Ireland is set out in the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 1956, as amended and other relevant Regulations. These laws grant citizenship to individuals born in Northern Ireland under the same conditions as those born in the Republic of Ireland.

In terms of UK recognition of that legislation (which, after all, was passed by Ireland - a completely separate jurisdiction) - under the Belfast Agreement, people born in Northern Ireland can choose to be British citizens, Irish citizens or both. If they choose to be both British and Irish citizens, this means they have a dual citizenship (relevant sections highlighted and reproduced below).

So, legally, Northern Irish people CAN call themselves Irish. It’s not your right to question “what it actually means”. It’s what that choice means to those people that’s important. How dare you shout down people’s legal right to self-determination?

Meanwhile, in other news, the British continue to make themselves a global laughing stock post the vote to leave the EU, with issues like this cropping up.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/06/home-office-british-citizenship-northern-ireland--good-friday-agreement.

I wouldn’t call myself British if you paid me (particularly post Brexit!) There are many, many educated and informed British folk, no doubt. But, with the outcome of the vote, the subsequent political SHIT-SHOW and that arrogant, incompetent, lazy, dangerous fool Boris likely to be at the helm, I’ll do anything possible to distance myself from THAT, thanks very much. And that includes my LEGAL RIGHT to call myself Irish.

@IntheHeatofLisbon i don’t disagree that the Orange Walks are big.

Whilst I miss the West Coast of Scotland this is one thing I do not miss.

I would always avoid Glasgow City centre after an old firm game even though I felt very safe there at other times.

My kids Boyfriends / girlfriends will not be asked as soon you meet them ‘What football team do you support?’

All forms of sectarianism should be a thing of the past.

Orangism in Scotland nowadays is a tiny, tiny underclass hobby.

Even the marches get smaller every year and when you look at the people involved, you want to be any of them.

It’s sad to see but good that it is absolutely dying.

I would always avoid Glasgow City centre after an old firm game even though I felt very safe there at other times

I do too, and I go to the games. We go in 3 hours early and park outside the stadium to ensure getting out safely. I don't go to the ones at Ibrox.

@IntheHeatofLisbon I remember being at a friends house when Rangers beat Celtic at Parkhead to win the league (a long time ago)

She stayed near a Rangers pub - I was
Glad we were inside!

Justaboutdone I can imagine!

I've worked at old firms at Hampden and it's a scary place to be. In fact I wouldn't walk around parkhead after an old firm either, we're strictly in, park, get out of the car and into the stadium, then out and into the car again.

Sadly there are prejudices and rifts that go so deep I don't think they'll ever be solved.

I'm well aware that not all rangers fans are fans of the OO and bigots. Just as I know first hand not all Celtic fans are pro IRA.

A loud minority of both sets of fans are scumbags.

Grew up in Glasgow and worked at Hamden Park selling pies and bovril as a kid. Most old firm supporters are fine - but a hideous minority of thugs exist. As for Orange Marches - they deliberately stopped to play loudly outside Catholic Churches is there happened to be a wedding! The numbers on the marches would be a lot smaller if they stopped shipping in rent a thugs from NI. Shameful shambles of KKK soundalikes.

InTheHeatofLisbon

Respect to your dad 👍

The solution?

Many protestants do not take part in the 12th because they don't agree with it and are not political and couldn't care less about the whole thing. However they call themselves British and would not like a united Ireland. Yes, it may be contradictory but that's the way it is.

The numbers on the marches would be a lot smaller if they stopped shipping in rent a thugs from NI This is true stoneofdestiny but it also works the other way - bands from Scotland go over to NI.

@ineedtostopbeingsolazy - Yes, it may be contradictory but that's the way it is.

I wouldn't see that as contradictory at all. Just decent people who aren't bigoted and who just want to get on with their lives in peace.

PIGLET189 well said and totally agree!👏🏻

I never came across it until I moved south to central Scotland. The senior cop in charge of Aberdeen city centre at the time that a load of incomers got an Orange walk together told me (we worked together later) that they had to lock the pubs to stop the locals coming out to throw the bigots out of the city; there wasn't even segregated schooling up north.

Its utterly vile with people singing sectarian songs, the constant threat of violence from both the marchers and crowds, and shouts of Fuck the Pope. A friend lives in Southport in England and this weekend the town centre is a no-go area for locals due to what they see as an invasion by these people.

If it was a race pride march, it would be banned but because it's religion, it gets by under the culture banner. More and more people in Scotland are loudly complaining about these dinosaurs being allowed to ferment and stir public hatred in the 21st century. They don't even know their history, given that William was backed by papal approval and money.

StoneofDestiny cheers, he's pretty awesome!

I did that job too! Hampden when it opened was grim for old firms.

Absolutely agree the vast majority of supporters are decent, but there are a sadly very loud section from each who go solely to cause trouble.

The dickheads who did the sniper at work banner for Brendan Rodgers showed they had no clue about their own bloody manager (green brigade) as we were all disgusted and even the usually calm Rodgers spoke out.

The rangers fans waving Para flags and singing about f*nian blood are no better.

I've felt a shift this season though. John Greig being one of the first to lay a wreath for Billy McNeill showed the proper way to be rivals. Two giants of the game.

Last night evidently turned into the usual slanging match as typical of NI forums which I have no wish to revive. However i stumbled on this article today and it is a pity I didnt find it yesterday as it would have gone a long way to answering OPs original post ( she may have scuttled off by now anyhoo).
@starbuckslover
It is an interesting read about the OO from a member within and how they feel about the whole organisation, the way it is run and how it comes across to the general public. I wouldnt have known any of this myself as i dont follow the protestant tradition or the orange order and I feel everyone who commented should at least read. I think it shows that this person at least is not a Catholic hater nor any of the other names thrown about last night.

sluggerotoole.com/2019/07/11/the-orange-order-an-insiders-view/

Goodnight

Oh and also read the comments from readers at the end of the article.
The whole piece comes across as very civil.
We can learn a lot about our internet conduct mumsnetters!!

Biggest problem in northern ireland is segregation of our school system. There should be no such thing as catholic schools or church of ireland schools. Integration is the way forward. FFs even teachers for each religion of school have been taught in two seperate training centres

And it tends to be people of catholic faith who want to maintain catholic schools rather than integrate

@Waveysnail - And it tends to be people of catholic faith who want to maintain catholic schools rather than integrate

Really? Do you have data to back that up? The most recent I can find (2012 - mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/78125/1/MPRA_paper_78124.pdf, published in 2015) shows equal percentages (11%) of catholics attending either protestant or integrated schools as protestants attending either catholic or integrated schools.

Additionally, given that catholic schools tend to achieve better results than protestant schools, I would expect a lot of parents would also consider that when choosing a school. That would, I expect, result in catholic parents being less likely to choose a different alternative.