12th of July

[starbuckslover]

Apologies for posting this in AIBU, I was sure where to put it but..

AIBU form not understanding why people in Northern Ireland still celebrate the 12th of July (and the 11th night), in such an epic fashion? A country that voted for and signed the Good Friday Agreement, begging for peace to then light bonfires burning Irish flags, and marching gleefully in memory of a war that resulted in the death and oppression of goodness knows how many Catholics, is more than a little hypocritical?

How can this still be happening? I know people who are so anxious about brexit as it could upset the peace process who are out watching the marches today..how?!

Also, most place in NI are integrated now so Protestant and Catholic people are living as neighbours. How can these Protestant people go to parades that celebrate their neighbour's persecution...

I would fee the same if there were catholic parades for the same thing...so I am really not on one side or the other.

If anyone can help me to understand how such a huge group of (many) educated, sensible people (I know lots aren't, but many are normal everyday, semi-liberal citizens), can be so hypocritical I would be very grateful...🤷‍♀️

[Crocodilesoup]

I know literally no one in the Orange order, but plenty who went to parades on the 12th or 13th, or bonfires on the 11th. Being in the parades isn't the same as watching them. I would assume a lot of younger people who join the OO do so because of a line of relatives being in it. No idea if there is pressure to join in the same way that there was pressure to join a paramilitary group in certain areas.

[Newschapter]

@starbuckslover did you start this thread to gather proper opinion or to start a bun fight?

Just curious.

[isthatapugunicorn]

We aren’t all ‘celebrating’ it. The Orange men and women are. The catholic’s are not. Nor is anyone with half a brain.

[isthatapugunicorn]

Oh, and half my family are in the Orange Order - the evangelical idiot DUP supporting one’s who love ‘tradition’ and fleg waving.

[InTheHeatofLisbon]

The comments defending the bonfires and the OO are absolutely staggering.

No, there's nothing awful about intimidating entire communities, while playing silly little tin whistles and bleating on and on about 1690. Nope, nothing awful about putting effigies of Catholics on the bonfires or racial abuse against football players they perceive to be Catholic.

It goes on in parts of Scotland too, and I for one can't fucking wait to see the end of marching season. Pissed up bigots singing football songs and blathering about King Billy and being up to their knees in the blood of Catholics.

Nope, fine upstanding members of the community one and all.

Especially the grand high wizard or some such bullshit who has been drunk since fucking 6am and making sure the whole damn street knows they'll be on the march tomorrow.

It's bullshit. Fucking pathetic, toy soldier bullshit b

[Isthisafreename]

www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0712/1061633-12-july-northern-ireland/

RTE report on the 12th. A lot less trouble than previous years but still some sectarian behaviour.

[EAIOU]

I respect religions and differences and cultures.

The 12th has become less about the historical aspect and what it represented and more so the political/sectarian side of it.

I saw photos today of political parties faces cut out and stuck onto the bonfire piled and scraped high.

Not only this but there have always been tricolours stuck to these bonfires aswell.

So I'm afraid for its an arse of a day with massively unacceptable behaviour and gives the bigots "their day".

[Moralitym1n1]

It's an expression of identity, solidarity and defiance by people who feel threatened.

England originally created this situation with the plantation, perhaps you should learn more about why they would feel threatened.

[Moralitym1n1]

Instead of just asking why it's "necessary".

There are reasons they feel so strongly and don't want republicans (or the UK) to forget they're here and they're Brutish, as they have been for hundreds of years.

[Moralitym1n1]

*British

Though in some cases, the typo might be accurate.

[LaurieMarlow]

It's an expression of identity, solidarity and defiance by people who feel threatened

I’d have more sympathy for their position if they ceased to burn effigies of key figures belonging to their neighbours.

Neighbours whom they’ve had a significant economic and political upper hand over through the ages.

[starbuckslover]

I started this thread as I genuinely wanted to understand why family members of mine insist on attending the parades and referring to it as the glorious 12th. I am then slated as I expressed an opinion as to why I would never attend and how I do not understand that with their knowledge of the background of this day, along with the intimidation and in some cases violence that occurs every year, they want to be part of it. It baffles me genuinely.

I'm a 'prod' from NI (although I'm an atheist so I argue against this label as I have no religion and I refuse to believe that I am Protestant because of my birth, it is not an ethnicity). I genuinely do not understand how so many people who attend and speak of peace at the same time don't see the hypocrisy?

Nothing in this thread has cleared this up really..

[Isthisafreename]

@Moralitym1n1 - It's an expression of identity, solidarity and defiance by people who feel threatened.

Except the marching and intimidation were going on long before there was any threat to their dominant position.

[MrsSarahSiddons]

It all stinks and I am appalled that it is now spreading to areas of Scotland where it never traditionally took place - the OO are insisting on marching through Dunkeld this year of all places. Hateful and disgusting.

[Two4Tuesday]

As a Catholic from NI, I'm in two minds about the Twelfth.

Of course, the types of bonfires which reach the news only do so because they are worthy of being reported on. Bonfires that are built in car parks of leisure centres and that are built so close to houses that housing associations have to re-house tenants are despicable and should be dealt with by all appropriate parties.
Bonfires which are piled high with tyres, or election posters, or tricolours to be burnt, or effigies, or posters saying "kill all taigs" should be banned and rejected absolutely by their communities. That isn't "culture", that is just blatant sectarianism and intimidation, and a suspicion of Loyalist involvement.

However, there are a huge amount of bonfires which pass without incident, which are a safe distance from properties, and where the night is treated as a family activity. Some are even moving towards more environmentally friendly pyres. The same goes for marches - only the ones which cause trouble are reported on.

Things have come a long way since I was a child, however. My parents used to take us on holiday over the Twelfth as tensions were so heightened.

[Justaboutdone]

It doesn’t have a place in modern society.

And if we have a look at Scotland which I do know about - there is no need for the singing that goes on at both Ibrox and Parkhead.

But these friends always come across as if it’s only Protestants that are sectarian.

It’s not and the vile hatred that comes out of Parkhead is just as bad as

It’s time for all of us to move on.

[GrapefruitIsGross]

I’m really trying not to demonise the people who organise the bonfires and parades, but I just saw a post on Twitter from Leona O’Neill of photos of the stalls at the Coleraine field.

“Support Soldier F” polo shirts for sale. Because everyone needs a dash of sectarianism in their smart-casual wear.

Are there still people in this country with no catholic colleagues, friends, neighbours or in-laws? Honest question.

[Justaboutdone]

These posts that should say not friends

[starbuckslover]

@Streamside

The agreement enshrined the right for people in NI to uphold their own culture and identity while respecting others.

Your last point above says 'while respecting others'...clearly the orange order and people who support the parades and bonfires have not fulfilled that part of the deal...

[Isithometimeyet0987]

I live in Northern Ireland and where I live the Protestants and Catholics are as bad as each other. I have quite a mixed (dad a British soldier during the troubles, mum brought up a catholic) family so have been to the 12th of July and the 15th of August, and I have to say both sing sectarian songs and shout horrible serterian things about each other, but both days could also be enjoyable if people didn’t act the way they do, as lots is put on (singers, dancers, food, music, bouncy castles, face painting to name a few things). Both sides need to wise up in my opinion. I am neither Protestant or Catholic so am unbiased to either side. I have to say though I don’t think it will change anytime soon.

[Streamside]

Never in my life have I attended a parade where anyone was disrespectful to Catholics.Tomorrow I'll go to Scarva which is attended by 100,000 people, do you really believe they're all sectarian.

[Piglet89]

Full disclosure: I’m a Northern Irish Catholic. I’m also a regulatory lawyer. So I thought I would take a wee look at the rules of the Order, to PROVE that @Booboosweet is at least a third right and the membership IS sectarian.

In its rules, the Orange Order does not allow members to attend or take part in a Roman Catholic Mass.

FACT.

That’s enough for me. They’re Catholic haters and when they beat that big Lambeth drum, many of them pretend it’s a Catholic. Pull the wool from your eyes, people.

[Piglet89]

*Lambeg drum. Not Lambeth drum. Lambeth has a walk, not a drum.

With apologies to the good people from that proud London Borough. 😳