12th of July

[starbuckslover]

Apologies for posting this in AIBU, I was sure where to put it but..

AIBU form not understanding why people in Northern Ireland still celebrate the 12th of July (and the 11th night), in such an epic fashion? A country that voted for and signed the Good Friday Agreement, begging for peace to then light bonfires burning Irish flags, and marching gleefully in memory of a war that resulted in the death and oppression of goodness knows how many Catholics, is more than a little hypocritical?

How can this still be happening? I know people who are so anxious about brexit as it could upset the peace process who are out watching the marches today..how?!

Also, most place in NI are integrated now so Protestant and Catholic people are living as neighbours. How can these Protestant people go to parades that celebrate their neighbour's persecution...

I would fee the same if there were catholic parades for the same thing...so I am really not on one side or the other.

If anyone can help me to understand how such a huge group of (many) educated, sensible people (I know lots aren't, but many are normal everyday, semi-liberal citizens), can be so hypocritical I would be very grateful...🤷‍♀️

"Additionally, given that catholic schools tend to achieve better results than protestant schools" should read "Additionally, given that catholic schools tend to achieve better results than protestant and integrated schools"

I still think integrated education would be better. I wrote that on another Mumsnet thread but was told that the children in those schools still went home to a bigoted society/ family so integrated schools didnt make much of a difference. I dont live in the North so i dont know if this is true or not.

@beanaseireann - I agree with you re integrated school being a better option. Even if they are going home to a bigoted family/society, spending large chunks of your day with the "other" can only make them less "other".

".... spending large chunks of your day with the "other" can only make them less "other". "

Oops i failed to post i absolutely agree with you.

Of course integrated education would improve things. I’m still aghast, looking back, at how many of my peers had never spoken to someone of another religion, despite living 10 mins away.

Getting to know people as individuals humanises them.

It's ridiculous to say that integrated education wouldn't help, how could it not?! Growing up in NI from a RC background, I barely met a Protestant in a social or educational capacity until university age! By then you have a lot of preconceived notions. If you have kids from all religious backgrounds being educated together it's much easier to dispel those notions at an early age. Read a great quote from Adrian Dunbar recently on integrated education where he said something along the lines of it being much harder to fear someone if you're sat beside them every day for seven years. Very true.

I totally agree re the schools.

This morning I arrived home from holidays, which I arranged this year specifically to avoid the 11th and 12th having because last year in my otherwise nice village things got quite nasty around bonfire time, and local youths put a lot of effort into trying intimidate people to hand over money for unspecified reasons.

I actually cried on the way home from the airport as I was so down about the mess that this place is in. The economy is crap, job and career prospects are poor despite a very well educated society, salaries are poor, my son needs to see a consultant and is likely to be waiting for around 3 years to see one and another year or two after that for surgery, our road infrastructure is falling apart, we have very little public transport and the people who have the power to move us forward don't want to. And that's just a fraction of it. No one need worry about the DUP bung being spent on only one side of the community, because it's not being spent at all.

There are a lot of great things about N Ireland, but sometimes it's so oppressive that it totally overwhelms me.

I hear you @isabellerossignol . I love the island of Ireland, love so much about our small section of it, the scenery, the culture of arts and music, the friendliness of the majority. But there is lots to be frustrated about, and there are times when I just want to run away from it all.

Re: integrated education, I just want to echo absolutely what @diaduittoyou said.

I went to an integrated primary school in the early 90s. I would imagine it was one of the first, as this was before the GFA was signed.
I don't know if those children went home to bigoted families but I highly doubt it, because
not once was I ever subjected to what adults would call sectarianism. I went to play dates at their homes, and they to mine. Our parents shared taking the kids to and from school. I went to their birthday parties, and they to mine. They're still my friends, 25 years later. I'm not even sure we were aware that there was a difference between us.

Contrast that to my mother, who was 16 years old by the time she met a Protestant for the first time.
Is it any wonder we fear "themmuns"? We just think we don't know them.
I am a huge, huge advocate for integrated education in NI. If we invest more resources into developing integrated education in this country and making it the rule, rather than the exception, I genuinely believe this will be a different place.

In purely financial terms, the education situation is bonkers as well. Running two more or less separate sets of schools in a fairly small population. It's crazy when so many resources could be pooled.

If people really can't be pushed towards integrated education, another possibility might be something like Strule in Omagh where they have (or will have) separate schools sharing facilities on one campus. The kids might not be being educated in the same buildings but at least they can look across the sports pitches and see that 'the others' don't have two heads...

@isabellerossignol .....and teaching their respective teachers in two separate training colleges......

How ironic that so many 'Free' schools have now been brought into existence, further fracturing the education system. Not sure if that is happening in NI.

12th is a fucking joke to be frank.
Im in a small town in the north west and the stupid shit over flags is beyond ridiculous. On both sides. Fucking union flegs and tricolours hanging. No one will take them down. They are nothing more than an eyesore and decrease house prices in those areas. Council wont redo the roundabout that they decided to deface with the red white and blue. Yea thats some great 'culture' right there. Fuckwits. Ni is the laughing stock. Roi doesnt want us. Uk doesnt want us.

@Hairwizard - that reminds me of a visit to Belfast about 30 years ago.

We got lost in a red white and blue area while driving a southern reg car. Dh wouldn't stop the car so I could ask for directions :-)

That said, I've always had a great time whenever I visited the north. The only negative interactions I experienced were with british army personnel.

Isthisafreename
We got lost in a red, white and blue area in Belfast too in a southern registered car.
We thought we'd never get out quick enough- pre Good Friday agreement.

I have a relative from a far south county in Ireland, with a very thick accent to match, who got lost on the Shankill Road in Belfast on foot (don't ask) in the 80s. He can laugh about it now!

@diaduittoyou - with the difference is accents, even if he asked for directions, they'd have thought he was speaking a different language anyway.