12th of July

[starbuckslover]

Apologies for posting this in AIBU, I was sure where to put it but..

AIBU form not understanding why people in Northern Ireland still celebrate the 12th of July (and the 11th night), in such an epic fashion? A country that voted for and signed the Good Friday Agreement, begging for peace to then light bonfires burning Irish flags, and marching gleefully in memory of a war that resulted in the death and oppression of goodness knows how many Catholics, is more than a little hypocritical?

How can this still be happening? I know people who are so anxious about brexit as it could upset the peace process who are out watching the marches today..how?!

Also, most place in NI are integrated now so Protestant and Catholic people are living as neighbours. How can these Protestant people go to parades that celebrate their neighbour's persecution...

I would fee the same if there were catholic parades for the same thing...so I am really not on one side or the other.

If anyone can help me to understand how such a huge group of (many) educated, sensible people (I know lots aren't, but many are normal everyday, semi-liberal citizens), can be so hypocritical I would be very grateful...🤷‍♀️

Elizabeth I died without issue (children), and having already beheaded Mary (Queen of Scots) for fear of her taking over the English throne, Mary's son James (I of England, VI of Scotland) became king of both England and Scotland.

After that, you fking idiot.

I repeat:

How can anyone legally stop the people in NI in say 30 or 40 years democratically voting for a united Irelend ?

If you don't intend to stop them, then it would make sense to keep strengthening ties between NI and the Irish Republic,

so that this is a gradual process and not so alarming to most Unionists as it seems to you.
imo ideally joint Irish-British rule in say 10 years time, to run until 20 years after such a vote

I've yet to read of any Protestant in the Irish Republic who seriously thinks that NI Protestants would not enjoy full civil rights after reunification, just like they do themselves

Rights of minority religions are enshrined in the constitution of the ROI.

I’ve never understood why Ulster Unionust types are so terrified, it’s a nice life down south.

The OP has asked a question that many should have asked or been aware of over the years, especially those in parliament and government.

Battles and history are celebrated in many places- having a gathering with speeches and other celebrations is OK within reason, but marching through areas with people of a different tradition is not in my view.

After that, you fking idiot

Aw bless, being called out on your shite really is irritating you eh?

James linked the thrones of Scotland and England.

That's a fact.

Unlike the utter pish you've been spouting for pages.

It's quite funny really, because you're just making yourself look a bit silly rather than making valid points.

And showing yourself up to be a nasty little bigot at the same time.

Lovely.

Night shift but FUCK OFF anyway dear

Gosh, do your employers know you’ve spent your whole shift posting on MN (and frantically googling)

"northern Ireland had a very different background and dynamic than the Republic of Ireland. "

There is now the European Convention of Human Rights, the Court too
The Irish Constitution

Gardai and PSNI officers can join each other's organisation
The current Garda Commissioner was the former PSNI deputy CC

Umpteen high-ranking Irish politicians over the years haave been Protestants

There is no recent history of Irish Catholics oppressing Protestants - just plenty in the other direction

There is no reason to worry they would oppress you after a democratic vote, when they didn't oppress protestants after 2 bloody wars

“There is no reason to worry they would oppress you after a democratic vote, when they didn't oppress protestants after 2 bloody wars”

Indeed, these people will cling to even the most outlandish of scenarios and pretend to fear for themselves to hold onto their hegemony for every second they can.

Economically, partition has been a disaster for NI, as well as a burden to GB:

NI has a dysfunctional economy consisting of about 70% public sector

They are massively subsidised by Britain, about £10-12 billion per year, all because of 1 million Unionists;
that's more than the UK net contributions to the EU for 65 million people

It's not just the Troubles - the deterioration started many decades before,
probably because Protestants were too busy excluding Catholics from playing a full part in the country.

In contrast:
The RoI’s economy is 4 x larger than NI’s, generated by a work force that is only 2.5 x larger
The RoI’s industrial output is 10 x that of the NI
RoI exports are 17 times x those of NI
RoI average income = €39,873, vs €23,700 in NI

https://www.irishtimes.com/northern-ireland-and-the-tripadvisor-index-of-economic-vibrancy-1.3311077

The union with Britain has been an economic calamity for Northern Ireland.^b
All the people have suffered, Catholic and Protestant, unionist and nationalist.

In 1920, 80 per cent of the industrial output of the entire island came from the three counties around Belfast.

Belfast was the biggest city in Ireland in 1911, larger than Dublin, and was home to Ireland’s innovation and technology.
...[now] Dublin is three times bigger than Belfast, far more cosmopolitan and home to hundreds of international companies.

At partition the North was industrial and rich, the South agricultural and poor

Fast-forward to now, and the contrast couldn’t be greater.

The collapse of the Northern Ireland economy compared with that of the Republic has been unprecedented.
East and West Germany come to mind.

^NI has a dysfunctional economy consisting of about 70% public sector

could this be because some employees spend their whole night shift on Mumsnet?

The OO bans it's members from participating in mass, from entering a Catholic church and from marrying a Catholic. Let's not mix up protestants and Orangemen. They're not the same thing

Absolutely true. Most Protestants I know, unless from NI and Scotland) don't even call themselves 'Protestants' and refer to their church allegiance instead - Methodist/CofE/ Baptist etc. No Protestants I know have had any issue with being in a Mass - attending Catholic weddings, Baptisms, Funerals etc. Likewise no Catholic I know have any issue the other way. Most I know are in what was referred to a 'mixed marriage' when I was a child. Now 'mixed marriage' would just mean one from each gender 😀
Thank god times have changed.

Right morality, I see you bleated on into the night. You can't understand our "hypocrisy". What the fuck is hard to understand about I was born here (under British rule, that yes in an ideal world, I wouldn't choose). My family are all here (and have been as far back as we can trace them), as our my friends, my work, my history, my ties. It's not as simple as "moving to ROI", much as the bitter unionists would love that. Nope, our land may have been taken from us, but we won't be forced out.

Protestants who stayed in the Irish republic were given full civil rights, including being elected President of the country

Protestants in the South shrank from 10 percent to less than 1 percent after partition. They were a beleaguered minority - most of them moved up north and the others kept their heads down. Making a Protestant president was a token gesture. High profile liberal Protestants like Yeats were saddened to see a nation develop into an illiberal and ultra-Catholic, narrow-minded state.

Ulster Unionists were largely proven right in their fears that Home Rule means Rome Rule. The Catholic Church and the state were hand in glove with the North having far more advanced welfare state and laws on contraception and divorce etc as it kept in line with the UK.

And let's not forget the sectarianism of the south against unionists and Protestants in the 1920s - many were burned out of their homes and murdered. Mostly in SW Ireland. See the historian Peter Hart for this.

Making a Protestant president was a token gesture

That’s total bollocks. Protestants are very well represented in the Republic in politics, business and key professions.

NIGHTSHIFT?! You've spent all this time online whilst working?!

And let's not forget the sectarianism of the south against unionists and Protestants in the 1920s - many were burned out of their homes and murdered

That was a long time ago. Unlike the North, the Republic has managed to put this kind of sectarian shit behind them.

High profile liberal Protestants like Yeats were saddened to see a nation develop into an illiberal and ultra-Catholic, narrow-minded state.

Ulster Unionists were largely proven right in their fears that Home Rule means Rome Rule. The Catholic Church and the state were hand in glove with the North having far more advanced welfare state and laws on contraception and divorce etc as it kept in line with the UK.

The irony. Who are the illiberal and narrow minded ones today? Which country has a better welfare state? Which party seeks to prevent women and gay people in NI enjoying the rights that are available in the rest of the UK and in ROI?

Don't pretend the hardline unionists give a toss about progressive issues. They're more concerned with opposing "them uns".

"Home Rule means Rome Rule"

Which bit of Ireland has equal marriage and legal abortion ?

There is widespread documentation of how Protestants in NI removed civil rights from catholics, kept them poor and powerless
In contrast, Protestants in the republic have if anything averaged slightly better off financially than catholics

It is likely that many Protestants, like certain pp here, just didn't want to live in a country they no longer rule, but are a minority in.

However, the % of Protestants has risen rapidly since 1990, maybe because of prosperity and hence immigration,
but also because the Catholic church has dramatically lost influence

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantisminn_Ireland

In the 2011 census of the Republic of Ireland, 4.27% of the population described themselves as Protestant.
[3] In the Republic, Protestantism was the second largest religious grouping until the 2002 census in which they were exceeded by those who chose "No Religion".[3]

Protestants in the South shrank from 10 percent to less than 1 percent after partition

5 % and growing as of the 2006 census

Don't pretend the hardline unionists give a toss about progressive issues. They're more concerned with opposing "them uns

Correct - they are fundamentalists through and through. Civil Rights? - no chance!

You'd think somewhere so progressive as the 'non Rome run' NI would have abortion access as is available to other women in the UK, wouldn't you?

Try living in the West of Scotland where half the people wearing Rangers tops walking behind the orange order haven't even got a fucking clue about any of it. It's hardly ever about history here. It's about hatred.

Sakura - I read that with an open mouth too. Don't they know about the great strides made towards a progressive society that (Rome led) ROI has made in recent years, whilst we in NI are kept behind by the knuckle dragging dinosaurs of the DUP?!

The Orange Order attracts people with the same mentality as the people who join the Ku Klux Klan. People who offer nothing positive to the world.