12th of July

[starbuckslover]

Apologies for posting this in AIBU, I was sure where to put it but..

AIBU form not understanding why people in Northern Ireland still celebrate the 12th of July (and the 11th night), in such an epic fashion? A country that voted for and signed the Good Friday Agreement, begging for peace to then light bonfires burning Irish flags, and marching gleefully in memory of a war that resulted in the death and oppression of goodness knows how many Catholics, is more than a little hypocritical?

How can this still be happening? I know people who are so anxious about brexit as it could upset the peace process who are out watching the marches today..how?!

Also, most place in NI are integrated now so Protestant and Catholic people are living as neighbours. How can these Protestant people go to parades that celebrate their neighbour's persecution...

I would fee the same if there were catholic parades for the same thing...so I am really not on one side or the other.

If anyone can help me to understand how such a huge group of (many) educated, sensible people (I know lots aren't, but many are normal everyday, semi-liberal citizens), can be so hypocritical I would be very grateful...🤷‍♀️

re guilt of ancestors, I was referring to what started it all, which was England invading Ireland 800 years ago
then centuries of brutal oppression and slaughter to keep it

I was 12 when the Troubles started, so I know whose fault it was that they grew

internment, the 5 torture techniques, Bloody Sunday, Ballymurphy massacre, britsih forces collaborating with Loyalist terrorists ....

Those still alive should face trial for those crimes, since the govt chose not to admit them and have them included in the GFA

Unfortunately, our future PM agress with the campaign for immunity for British service personel who committed those crimes
So, once again, no justice for Ireland

Most of their problems, like Ireland's, are caused by centuries of British misrule

Northern Ireland's current problems are not caused by British misrule; they are caused by self rule. They couldn't agree on or organise a piss up in a brewery. The only time anything gets done is when Westminster takes over.

what started it all, which was England invading Ireland 800 years ago

Ah ah aah- you might want to go back to your history book there, to Dermot McMurrough.

"Noone is saying the NI settlers have to leave
You're either naive or wilfully blind re what they think their position will be."

What is your concern here ?

After Irish independence, even after a far bloodier war of independence and then civil war than the Troubles,
Protestants who stayed in the Irish republic were given full civil rights, including being elected President of the country

This is despite the Protestants in NI depriving Catholics of their civil rights, ever since NI was founded
and only stopped (mostly) by the GFA

Don't worry, Ireland won't treat you like your parents, GPs, great GPs treated the Catholics

Of course, if you mean you won't stay in a democratically chosen united Ireland, where you are no longer top dog, that's your choice to flounce

How do you propose to prevent that - by gerrymandering and taking away Catholics' rights to vote, like your ancestors did ?

Many Protestant Christians wouldn't take part in a mass - I don't think you'd be allowed to actually from the Catholic side, the bread and wine bit, if you aren't Catholic. Going into a Catholic Church service is another matter. Ecumenism not big with the OO I'm guessing.

Coming from a family of converts/cradle catholics and brought up as lapsed I've seen many protestants and others take part in mass.

Children bringing the Offertory (carrying bread and wine to the alter), protestant groom on the altar, lots of people who take a blessing when the RCs take communion and even I, an atheist who makes Dawkins look liberal, shake hands at the sign of peace.

Just like the Scottish, someone ran to "Daddy" like a toddler .. no doubt it would've happened sooner or later but don't be idealising your Irish history.

Northern Ireland's current problems are not caused by British misrule; they are caused by self rule

Not true. They're caused by the DUP refusing to allow an investigation into shady dealings by Arlene Foster as FM. The elections which came just after McGuinness resigned put just 1000 or so votes between the DUP and Sinn Fein meaning the unionists wouldn't have a majority for the first time.

So it seems to me that the DUP are the issue, and instead of Westminster stepping in and ensuring an investigation into the misuse of funds happened, they handed the people who misused those funds a billion pounds and ignored their misappropriation of money, because it suited them.

Hardly the NI people bringing it on themselves eh?

Just like the Scottish, someone ran to "Daddy" like a toddler

Sorry what? Explain that ridiculous statement.

Protestants who stayed in the Irish republic were given full civil rights, including being elected President of the country

They weren't given full civil rights everywhere, some were intimidated out of their homes.

And your "what are you worried about, that you won't get your privileges etc. spiel" demonstrates exactly the assumption and nastiness that any poster I've tried to explain the unionist viewpoint and concerns too .... I'm not from a protestant family, it's mixed.

The OO bans it's members from participating in mass, from entering a Catholic church and from marrying a Catholic.

Let's not mix up protestants and Orangemen. They're not the same thing.

Sorry what? Explain that ridiculous statement

Not remotely ridiculous; the Scottish nobles gave Edward the First an In to Scotland during the succession crisis, they involved him, they let him get a foothold and power.

And the Irish did the a similar thing with a "he took my throne, I want it back, waa waa" to Henry the second, paving the way for them to.be overlords.

Until the “unionist” viewpoint abandons the DUP and all the nonsense like massive bonfires burning Irish flags, it will continue to lose ground. Why should anyone listen to people like that, regardless of their “viewpoint”?

Demographics and change will bring about majority support for Irish reunification really quite soon, and the unionists who have had it their own way forever until this point will need to accept the change.

And when they do they might as well accept the truth. “Britain” doesn’t give two figs about them or about Northern Ireland.

Hardly the NI people bringing it on themselves eh?

I didn't say it was the people of northern Ireland. We consider our politicians shite, on both sides. And Arlene may have been caught out with that disaster but SF haven't been much better - scrapped the fkg 11plus with nothing on its place and left our kids doing random, disparate transfer tests.

I am so sick of reading all of this bullshit every year.

You know, if people put as much effort into better schools, apprenticeships, youth centers, etc as the 12th and all its importance then maybe young protestant boys wouldn't be the most undereducated, underachieving kids in NI.

Don't you find it sad that this is the total highlight of the year for a lot of these kids Morality?

Ran to Daddy?

No fucking wonder everyone is so fucked off at attitudes that don't take long to come to surface.

You haven't a clue about history, you've shown that much, and you haven't a clue about the OO either.

"Daddy" died without having won against the Scots, the war was still ongoing and in fact 6 years after he died the Scots won at Bannockburn.

He wasn't exactly "daddy" when he was sent home to think again was he? As we sing in our national anthem.

But you carry on rewriting history eh?

The current devolved Assembly in NI collapsed originally because the DUP wanted to avoid facing up to their Cash for Ash scandal

The Unionist share of the vote keeps dropping over the years and at the last Assemby elections they lost their majority for the first time
Their position is likely to keep worsening, with ever fewer voters

They can't bear this; they have always dominated and ruled

Hence they want to preserve their position of privilege by having Westminster rule,
instead of accepting a minority position in the Assembly

Of course there is no inherent lack of ability in Irish people to govern themselves,
atm, the deadlock is mainly the DUP and minority Unionist parties still trying to exclude catholics from power

Don't worry, Ireland won't treat you like your parents, GPs, great GPs treated the Catholics

Get Ben some of my grandparents are Catholics from co. Donegal I have a slight feeling they weren't out repressing other Catholics. To the contrary they were trying to eke out a living on a shitty small farm .... But thank you for your prejudiced presumption ; entirely because I have had the gall to point out that I know some people whose protestant grandparents were not treated well in the new Republic of Ireland, and because I don't think there are zero downsides to NI being dismantled as a state.

That means I must be card carrying unionist, orange, bigoted prod, right? So sorry to disappoint.

*Given

That means I must be card carrying unionist, orange, bigoted prod, right? So sorry to disappoint.

Er no, that'll be your own statements that give that impression. Nasty little asides and a complete lack of knowledge of history.

If it quacks like a duck......

But you carry on rewriting history eh?

They involved him.

What happened after that was chance.

And there was plenty of English involvement after him.

And they ended up marrying into the English royal family which meant that after the Stewarys/Stuarts, the English royal family ended up on the Scottish throne, which is why you have the English queen and her family in Holyrood.

But you're right, I know fuck all.

"Protestants who stayed in the Irish republic were given full civil rights, including being elected President of the country
They weren't given full civil rights everywhere, some were intimidated out of their homes."

I won't say there wasn't a single case, right after 2 bloody wars - especially for those who had actually participated on the other side -
but Protestants in the RoI with those few exceptions had full civil rights and participated fully in the political and economic life of the country
They were certainly treated vastly better than Catholics in NI, even in the early days.

I've yet to read of any Protestant in the Irish Republic who seriously thinks that NI Protestants would not enjoy full civil rights after reunification, just like they do themselves

The only small saving grace is that the Hanoverians were descended from a Scottish princess.

A quick look suggests that England's economic policies toward Scotland contributed or exacerbated both a downturn in the 1650s due to trade restrictions, and a famine in the 1690s during which tend of thousands of Scots emigrated to Ireland.

That doesn’t explain the Ulster Plantation of 1609 and onwards, which is what I was referring to (fairly obvious when I mentioned the pre-Cromwellian and pre-Williamite settlement).

You’ve been up all night arguing about this, so I realise your brain must be foggy at this stage.

I've yet to read of any Protestant in the Irish Republic who seriously thinks that NI Protestants would not enjoy full civil rights after reunification, just like they do themselves

I'd like to believe you're right - but northern Ireland had a very different background and dynamic than the Republic of Ireland. You cannot presume things will go the same way.

And there was plenty of English involvement after him

And yet it took 400 years after him for the act of union. Hardly "Daddy" ruling over the Scots.

And they ended up marrying into the English royal family which meant that after the Stewarys/Stuarts, the English royal family ended up on the Scottish throne, which is why you have the English queen and her family in Holyrood

Bullshit.

Elizabeth I died without issue (children), and having already beheaded Mary (Queen of Scots) for fear of her taking over the English throne, Mary's son James (I of England, VI of Scotland) became king of both England and Scotland.

You're right, you know fuck all.