12th of July

[starbuckslover]

Apologies for posting this in AIBU, I was sure where to put it but..

AIBU form not understanding why people in Northern Ireland still celebrate the 12th of July (and the 11th night), in such an epic fashion? A country that voted for and signed the Good Friday Agreement, begging for peace to then light bonfires burning Irish flags, and marching gleefully in memory of a war that resulted in the death and oppression of goodness knows how many Catholics, is more than a little hypocritical?

How can this still be happening? I know people who are so anxious about brexit as it could upset the peace process who are out watching the marches today..how?!

Also, most place in NI are integrated now so Protestant and Catholic people are living as neighbours. How can these Protestant people go to parades that celebrate their neighbour's persecution...

I would fee the same if there were catholic parades for the same thing...so I am really not on one side or the other.

If anyone can help me to understand how such a huge group of (many) educated, sensible people (I know lots aren't, but many are normal everyday, semi-liberal citizens), can be so hypocritical I would be very grateful...🤷‍♀️

Those problems are for the people of those former colonies to deal with

Well how terribly convenient!

No, but much of the other 65 million in the GB do
In fact, until Brexit, many didn't realise that NI was a part of the UK
That includes some who posted on MN to find out

Countries have a right to independence and that also includes much larger countries that want to be rid of a smaller country

However, the GFA prevents the 65 million from choosing this; removes their right to do so

As long as the GFA holds, NI will only leave the UK if the NI votes choose this

You still haven't clarified this - how come it goes only to Ulster unionists?

It's being paid to the DUP, there currently isn't an administration in NI until Stormont restarts, and the DUP therefore control it.

Unless you think they're likely to distribute it to benefit nationalist communities?

Who can tell them to? Not the Tories, who depend on their --bought and paid for votes, not the NI government, because there isn't one, and not Westminster since they can't actually control what the DUP does.

So why do you think that money paid directly to a party whose entire purpose is unionism and the oppression of nationalists would be used to benefit anyone but unionists?

It's not morally right to hang on to a bit of someone else's country

And is it morally right to hang on to most of someone else's country, like America or Australia?

Should the colonists leave and give the entire country back to the native peoples?

Incidentally the "confidence and supply" deal hashed out by the Tories and the DUP expressiy states that both sides shall adhere to the GFA.

I'm not sure what you expect / wish to happen ?

The GFA means GB cannot vote to get rid of NI

That's the GFA btw, that you were so disgusted about that you didn't even read, but left the country
Do you still want to abolish it ?

If that happened, it is quite possible the Brexiters will dump NI pretty quickly, to get the US nd EU trade deals they want

Or do you somehow want to stop Catholics - and some Protestants - from voting for a united Ireland ?

A good way would be to make them feel NI was a place where they could be respected and safe, better off than in the Irish republic

Getting back to the OP:
Big step would be to make the parades a celebration of culture, not triumphalism over Catholics
and to keep marches out of catholic areas if the residents don't want them
Don't rub their noses in it
Stop marchers gloating over more recently murdered Catholics

You have interesting morals - you don't comment on the morality of the colonisations, or the discard of the damaged, unstable countries after use & exploitation, but have lots to say about how immoral it would be to hang onto them and how the coloniser has the right to throw them away.

In the US and Australia, the settlers were numerous enough to nearly exterminate the native inhabitants
They vastly outnumber them and now vastly outvote them

Noone is saying the NI settlers have to leave
However, they have to accept the democratic vote for a united ireland, when it comes

I'm not sure what you expect / wish to happen ?

I've heard people I respect marvel at the already small British isles being divided up into separate countries in this apparently ever smaller world and universe .. it might make sense to have a combined country/federation of Great Britain and Ireland. I doubt the Republic of Ireland would go for it at this time though.

Do you still want to abolish it ? hmm

Where did you read that??

In the US and Australia, the settlers were numerous enough to nearly exterminate the native inhabitants
They vastly outnumber them and now vastly outvote them

Yes I know.

I was pointing out the morals of your arguments.

That is not discarding other colonies: it is letting those countries vote to become independant
Most of their problems, like Ireland's, are caused by centuries of British misrule

just as GB can vote to leave the UK, which is the same as "discarding" NI

The descendants of those who built an empire and who conquered Ireland are not responsible for the crimes of their ancestors,
for the slavery, massacres, tortures, mass starvation

So GB doesn't have to hang onto NI as a punishment for what their ancestors did

It is only the GFA that requires us to do so
and since it is the peace treaty we signed, we have to keep to all its terms, legally and morally
even if this means a much softer Brexit than most Brexiters want

However, if the GFA is ever abolished, then there is nothing to stop GB voting to leave the UK and NI

I've heard people I respect marvel at the already small British isles being divided up into separate countries in this apparently ever smaller world and universe

They've always been divided up into separate countries, Britain isn't a country, the UK isn't a country, it's a union (apparently) of nations. Britain is a union of 3, the UK is a union of 4 (for now).

So GB doesn't have to hang onto NI as a punishment for what their ancestors did

Ancestors? You do realise that you're not discussing ancient history don't you? You're discussing less than 25 years ago.

Britain caused this, Britain invaded and commandeered Ireland, Britain caused the civil war and demanded the 6 counties, Westminster caused the referendum, and English and Welsh voters caused the Leave vote.

Why on earth is it up to Irish/Northern Irish people to yet again mop up a mess not of their making?

Dividing up unions then.

And the UK presents (if that's the right word) as one country for politics, sports etc. much of the time.

The genocides committed in the USA and Australia were horrific and I would always condemn them

However, in practical terms, the current population cannot be forced to leave the country to the remnants of the original country
It totally sucks, but genocide wins, for the descendants of the murderers

I don't know what policy you want there ?
Or just praise for your ancestors not committing genocide and solving the "Irish problem" before it began ?

The descendants of those who built an empire and who conquered Ireland are not responsible for the crimes of their ancestors,
for the slavery, massacres, tortures, mass starvation

I'm afraid I disagree.

And why does the PM keep apologising for historic injustices if they take zero responsibility for the past.

Dividing up unions?

Maybe take that up with English and Welsh leave voters, and the past however many governments (especially this one) who haven't bothered to hide their contempt for devolved administrations and elected MPs for Scotland and Wales.

They've delighted in telling Scottish MPs they're toothless, talked over and mocked them repeatedly in the HoC (google it, there's videos all over the internet), they've done the same for Welsh MPs and they're only giving a fuck about NI because it suits them to have the DUP in their pocket.

I always find it somewhat ironic and borderline hilarious that The Boyne, which these types are seemingly obsessed about, is in fact not even in the UK, but in the Republic of Ireland. It’s not even in Ulster!

Noone is saying the NI settlers have to leave

You're either naive or wilfully blind re what they think their position will be.

And the UK presents (if that's the right word) as one country for politics, sports etc. much of the time

No, there's team GB and the Westminster government. Other than that we're represented in politics by our own government (Scotland), our own majority of Westminster MPs (SNP), and bar competitions where team GB compete, we're very much Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

The EU realise that we're separate countries, thank god, because thankfully now we have representatives in the EU parliament that aren't Farage and are telling the EU what Scotland wants, because it's sure as shite Westminster won't!

“
I've heard people I respect marvel at the already small British isles being divided up into separate countries in this apparently ever smaller world and universe .”

How dense are these people whom you respect? The UK is literally made up of different countries, only one of which could be classed as “small”.

I always find it somewhat ironic and borderline hilarious that The Boyne, which these types are seemingly obsessed about, is in fact not even in the UK, but in the Republic of Ireland. It’s not even in Ulster!

I've never come across an Orangeman who knows that, or even understands what it's about. Apart from killing Catholics and celebrating it.

*Dividing up unions?

Maybe take that up with English and Welsh leave voters, and the past however many governments (especially this one) who haven't bothered to hide their contempt for devolved administrations and elected MPs for Scotland and Wales.

They've delighted in telling Scottish MPs they're toothless, talked over and mocked them repeatedly in the HoC (google it, there's videos all over the internet), they've done the same for Welsh MPs and they're only giving a fuck about NI because it suits them to have the DUP in their pocket.*

I dont doubt you're right, I suppose the people who suggested the British isles with its four/five (!) countries should be one political entity has an idealistic view of this. They just think it's getting weaker instead of stronger.