AIBU to think that this child should be allowed to compete as a girl? Transgender topic.

[Cassort]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/48800075/transgender-skater-fighting-to-compete?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3SHOZZproHs8lkaYi9tz5VcKPnE9xQRt7AR8m8rRPu5lPTJkp1m1808Os

It's an 11 year old (born male) ice skater. There's a little video where to me she looks female.

I daren't put this on the feminism board, but AIBU to think that in 20 years time we will look back in shame at how we have treated transgendered individuals?

I just put myself in those shoes for 5 hours. What on earth would I think? How much hate would I feel? How fucked up/strange/weird would I feel?

I have a very uneasy feeling in my soul about the vociferous opposition to transgenderism on MN currently. It doesn't sit comfortably with me.

I came across this story just now and it's typical of I suppose what the feminist MNers want transgender people to face. I.e. that they can't...

Should she compete as a girl? Or AIBU?

Another thread where the OP does a runner the moment they're called on to explain their stance and how they think it squares up with biological fact.

No wonder TRAs are so keen to hide behind #Nodebate because they literally can't explain themselves without tying themselves up in knots and their dogma has more holes than Swiss cheese.

And I'm sure we all know many girls who do few if any of those things.

The child did some things stereotyped as feminine.

Another thread where the OP does a runner the moment they're called on to explain their stance and how they think it squares up with biological fact

Yes, but that’s easily covered with ‘you’re all hateful transphobic bigots so I won’t discuss anything with you’.

It’s the perfect ‘get out of jail free’ card.

My favourite toy as a child was my uncle's Meccano and I haven't worn make up in about 25 years. I'm definitely a man by that logic and my breast, vagina, womb and ovaries are irrelevant.

lottie2888 is just a fly -by out for a reaction, nothing meaningful.

So if the England Men's football team all started wearing dresses, did their nails, put on earrings and plated their hair it would be OK for them to play the Women's USA football team tonight?

Of course it wouldn't! As many people have tried to point out, the England's Men's football team would have an advantage of height, weight, muscle power, speed etc over the Women's football team. That's why there is the Men's World Cup and the Women's World Cup in football. It's not just the World Cup for all footballers.

So when Maria becomes a 6 foot plus 17 year old with all the muscle power and speed that comes with it, that'll still be a level playing field? Little 5 foot 2 inch Mary or size 6 Joanna would be able to compete properly against Maria because Maria will be held back somehow - will there be a penalty of some sort against Maria (like Maria has to start 10 seconds behind Joanna or Mary if it's a speed type competition). No? Then Maria can't compete. If Maria wins it will always be seen as winning by cheating physically.

YABU

@Cassort, are you going for hair of the dog so you can come back this evening?

Allowed to participate , yes, it’s part of her transition into the world she belongs. Maybe not allowed to win. Let’s face it, these types of decisions are made all the time for little ones in the name of helping them grow into the people they want to be.

A very harmful approach.

This makes the competition all about the child, not about the competition among the other skaters.

In the olden days this sort of pandering used to be called spoiling or indulging the child.

Eventually the child will enter a world where people will judge them on their own merits and it will be very hard for them to cope when their 'specialness' isn't cutting it, opening doors, making people fawn all over them, even if - heaven forfend - unlimited access to female spaces is permitted by law.

This crisis is seen in all spoiled and indulged children as they grow; it leads to devastation when they are young adults.

It was both parents being men that led to the problems wrt bathrooms and changing rooms: the organisers said Maria needed a female escort.
The men adopted three siblings, a girl and two boys: they initially thought one of their sons was gay but seem to have been led by the child's insistence that they identify as female - at first they were asking them to change into boy's clothing before finally giving in and allowing them to wear dresses etc and use a new name.

Not sure whether Brazil (or any country for that matter) would just accept gender non-conforming kids wearing what they want in school - society should not be that way but it is sadly: I remember compromising when DS wanted pink shoes and I bought red instead because at the end of the day, I didn't want him getting hassle/being judged. All the mums on here that let their sons wear dresses, tutus etc - it's all very well until they get to school where they will get bullied/beaten up. I'm not saying this is fair or right but gender non-conforming is hard to pull off unless you're Conchita Wurst (presenting as male atm Love Tom whether female or male presenting but even they say it was bloody hard as a kid)..this child was more comfortable wearing dresses etc so the adoptive parents went with it the best way they knew how? We all want our kids to be happy and to fit in and we advocate for our own (does not mean I think competitive sport should not be segregated or that I believe in kids suppressing puberty/taking hormones, see my earlier comments).

We're just not there yet as a society where boys can have male names whilst wearing ribbons and noone gives a shit (kudos to Russell T Davies for this future model in years and years).
Boys can have longer hair, Men can have man buns, kilts and the odd sarong, oh and that awful romper trend which was bloody hideous for both sexes but children and teens struggle with uniform policies and being different. They are always going to come up against traditionalist stereotyping - the boys who wanted to wear skirts iirc in the heat last year inadvertently made this point.

Well what a clusterfuck of repetitive nonsense this thread is.

I didn't do a runner, I just can't be arsed arguing with bigoted arseholes.

The child is CLEARLY transgender. That's what I meant in my OP when I said she looks female. Yes, maybe she has a dick, but, sometimes nature goes a little haywire and you get anomalies.

I understand the fear of transgender females dominating female sports - but I think it's a thinly veiled 'valid' argument to endorse a fear of and hatred of transgender people.

I'm Irish and when I was growing up, engaging in homosexuality was illegal. I'm Irish and putting a woman into a Magdalene laundry for becoming pregnant out of marriage was normal. I'm Irish and mothers were forced to give their babies up for adoption if they were not married. This all happened in my lifetime. Now? We see it for the lunacy and fear and bigotry that it was.

This? It's just another scandal waiting to happen. It will take people 20 years maybe to accept transgender participation in events for their gender, but by that time, who will you have destroyed? Who will you have made to feel abnormal/weird/marginalised/discriminated against/depressed/suicidal? How many?

All for the name of women's sports. I bet 60% of you wouldn't run for a bus, let alone participate or compete in sports.

I know transgender is not a comfortable topic for you - hell - this thread shows that. But can you not for ONE FUCKING MINUTE put yourselves in the mind of the individual concerned?

I've flicked through this thread as it's frankly a whole load of repetitive nonsense and 'women's spaces' this and 'erosion of women's right's' that. It's a load of fucking bollocks and you fucking know it.

So argue among yourselves, castigate and disparage me. Ignore the comparison the other freedom rights movements. Do your fucking worst. But I sure as hell won't be engaging. When there are 100 baying wolves, you don't walk in requesting a discussion.

I'm disgusted quite frankly at MN. I hope some day you'll see the light, but in the meantime, I hope none of you are parents to trans-thinking children. Fuck me but that must be one cunt of a place to be born into.

I understand the fear of transgender females dominating female sports - but I think it's a thinly veiled 'valid' argument to endorse a fear of and hatred of transgender people

Then you really don't understand it.

This example looks harmless. A lovely little trans child who just wants to be allowed to skate against girls. What the OP doesn’t seem to be able to grasp is the danger to women of the precedent being set. After all it’s only skating...
But
Will female sports still exist if biological females can no longer effectively compete to win?
Will all female sports become open to trans women?
Rugby?
Boxing?
Martial Arts?
Ice Hockey?

There is a reason why these sports are sex segregated

20 years ago homosexuals were given electric shock treatment to cure them of their 'notions of gayness'. Put that in your pipe, smoke it, and fucking think about it.

(sorry, who wanted to wear shorts but wore skirts to adhere to school policy/make their point)

I just can't be arsed arguing with bigoted arseholes

See. I 100% predicted this :

Yes, but that’s easily covered with ‘you’re all hateful transphobic bigots so I won’t discuss anything with you’.

It’s the perfect ‘get out of jail free’ card.

20 years ago homosexuals were given electric shock treatment to cure them of their 'notions of gayness'. Put that in your pipe, smoke it, and fucking think about it.

Awful. And now children are given body and mind altering drugs leaving them sterile. Have we learned nothing about how to treat gay people?

Damn all us uppity women saying what about our rights!

We should get back to our kitchens forthwith.

OP:

"I understand the fear of transgender females dominating female sports - but I think it's a thinly veiled 'valid' argument to endorse a fear of and hatred of transgender people."

Nope. I disagree. I don't feel that way. At all.

As for sports - this really is a non-issue as it applies to possibly 0.0001% of the population, but for that tiny percentage, would it be THAT FUCKING AWFUL to allow them to 'be' women in a competition?

I don't know, maybe like jockeys they can weight it in some way. But you are saying that 'WE'RE ALRIGHT WITH TRANSGENDER, WE'RE NOT REMOTELY BIGOTED, BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT those men posing as women INVADING women's spaces..........' For the sake of winning a race?

Suck fuckin shite I've rarely come across.

Fuck me but that must be one cunt of a place to be born into.

Well, that's a delightful swearfest of incoherent rage, but at least that's a biologically accurate statement: in the end we all know what a woman is; we're all born via cunts

20 years ago homosexuals were given electric shock treatment to cure them of their 'notions of gayness'. Put that in your pipe, smoke it, and fucking think about it

Transgenderism is not an expression of sexuality, so this is as poor an analogy as your Rosa Parks example.

@Cassort
No I don't compete in women's sports but for those women that do this will honestly mean the end of it for them.
Why is it you feel that that transgender people's feelings are more important than that?
I think women should be able to compete in sport without it being about validating the identity of someone else which is what you are asking them to do.

I don't know why you feel so bloody threatened by a few - a handful - of biological anomalies!

Jesus Christ you'd swear it was the invasion of the zombies or something the way ye're going on.

Maybe this child will turn out to be truly transgender.

Sport is segregated by sex, not gender, a child or adults gender is irrelevant to which category they should compete in.

Humans are dimorphic and can't change sex.

I think that it’s sad that if my daughter wants to compete in sport in the future, if the way things are going, there will be very little point in her bothering. She won’t have a category to compete in fairly.
That’s more sad . Half the population won’t have a category to compete in so that a small minority can be appeased.