WIBU - man in women's changing rooms (NOT A TRANS THREAD)

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This occurred earlier today and I have been stewing since. I am aware that it is very trivial.

I took DS (nearly one) to a baby swim class earlier. It wasn't our usual one as that was cancelled due to another baby pooing in the pool and so they offered us this one as a replacement class.

Today, after the class, a man with two little girls (I would say aged 8 and 10-ish - they were both wearing brownie uniforms so - IRC from my own brownie days - I guess that pins it down to upper primary?) WALKED INTO THE WOMEN'S CHANGING ROOM, just as I was finishing dressing and pulling my top over my head. The changing rooms are completely communal with no cubicles (the pool is a school one) and moments earlier I had been topless. I was quite taken aback by his presence.

I said, 'This is the women's!', he said 'I have to come in with them, they can't go in the men's', I said 'I was getting changed!', he said 'can't you go in the loo?'. Now, at this point I fully intended to explain eloquently and convincingly that I could hardly let DS crawl all around the loo floor while I got dressed, but what I actually did was get flustered, point to DS and say 'on the floor!', which I think confused matters as he was indeed, at that point, on the changing room floor and I think the man thought I had just begun saying things at random. So I left with all the dignity I could muster (not much, given that I'd just babbled incoherently at a stranger who had seen me in my bra).

ANYWAY, I was in the right, wasn't I? My sense of when children can do things isn't great, but you can send two brownie-aged ones to get changed, can't you? And if you can't then a man wandering into the women's changing room can't be the answer, can it?!

NB. I am a bit worried that this title will set off a klaxon somewhere so PLEASE don't turn this into a trans thread - it is nothing to do with that

i wouldn’t send an 8 and 10 year old in the changing room by themselves

Are you serious? That is quite ridiculous.
My DS 7 has been getting himself changed after swimming for a year as he doesn’t want to go in the ladies. That man is being so unreasonable, there’s no way he should be in there and unless his DC have learning difficulties, they don’t need him there.

ds is autistic, I hate sending him into the changing rooms alone. it would be unreasonable for him to go in with me or me with him though.

I wouldn't send an 8 and 10 yr old into a changing room on their own

Good grief why not? Unless they have a disability or some special need (in which case they should be allowed use of the disabled changing room with their carer) then at 8 and 10 they are amply old enough to dress themselves.

If the problem is their behaviour then you need to fix that, not expect adults of the opposite sex tolerate them because they can't be trusted.

I do think most posters are missing the very key point that this is a school swimming pool, not a public one, so of course there wont be family changing or separate loos. School swimming is very basic. It is a school, with presumably male and female changing. But I do wonder how many men were actually in the male changing room. I do think he should have gone there first and perhaps even waited if there were men in there with their children. My guess if you complain is that the school will correctly pass you to the swim club, who will then perhaps not be able to do anything about it.

I suspect if I tell the swim club they'll send an email round all the parents. I suspect this because they send us endless ones about not photographing other people's children. Which suggests it isn't the most effective strategy for changing people's behaviour...

Personally it wouldn’t bother me simply because I only ever change in cubicles. However it’s outrageous that he suggested YOU get changed in the toilet, when he was the one in the wrong changing room!

In the place where we take my DS, there are signs on the doors of the changing room which make it pretty clear that women aren’t allowed in the male changing rooms and vice versa. I think he was being a cf and doesn’t realise how inappropriate it was.

Unless they have a disability or some special need (in which case they should be allowed use of the disabled changing room with their carer) then at 8 and 10 they are amply old enough to dress themselves.

The OP clearly says that there are no disabled changing rooms. I wonder what the swim school expects to happen in that instance?

Why have we not moved away from the expectation that dads take sons and mums take daughters swimming and built changing rooms to accommodate everyone?

At our gym they run swimming lessons at the time gym members can also use the pool and it is mayhem. The children, whilst technically able to change unsupervised, leave their clothes in the cubicles so that no one else can get in them, muck around, chuck things, throw talcum powder... Clearly they do need adults in there supervising them despite being older than 8.

If he does it again, report him to the police as a peeping tom?

This happened at our local swimming pool a few months...a Dad accompanied his daughter into the female changing rooms. There were actually a couple of naked women in there. His daughter was younger though...only about 5, but at that age she would have been fine to go into the men’s with him. He was very quickly told to get out which he did but I would have been mortified if I had been one of those women and pretty upset I think.

Of course he shouldn’t have been in there and I’m amazed that he thought that would be ok. Personally I think 8 and 10 is fine for them to go in by themselves to get changed, especially if they were together.

On the flip side, my husband is finding this issue so hard at the moment. He will only take our daughter to her swimming lesson very occasionally, but she has just turned 7. This is too old for her to go with DH into the male changing rooms (plus she’s old enough to really not want to), but we both feel she’s still too young to go into the changing rooms by herself. But when he takes her he has no choice. So she goes in and showers for absolutely ages, takes ages getting dressed and DH can’t help or do anything to speed her along. Last time he did it he actually said he feels that he can’t do it again because there’s nowhere appropriate for him to help his daughter get changed.

DecomposingComposers Mon 01-Jul-19 20:54:32
The children, whilst technically able to change unsupervised, leave their clothes in the cubicles so that no one else can get in them, muck around, chuck things, throw talcum powder... Clearly they do need adults in there supervising them despite being older than 8.

No, what they need are parents who teach and enforce standards of behaviour, so they don't require supervision once they're at an age where they should be capable of getting changed without messing about.

Not, not, not OK. How dare he tell you to get changed in the loo? You're the one who was supposed to be in there. He wasn't.

When my DS turns eight, I'll be re-registering him in an alternative swimming class so DH can take him into the male changing area. Yes, it's inconvenient; it involves a change of plan because it needs to fit with DH's and my own working hours and there's no way on earth I'm letting our young DS loose in an all-male changing area unsupervised. And I'm just as aware that other mothers will turn a blind eye to this rule and continue as they are, because it inconveniences them to work around this.

I have no intention of being one of those mothers. This is because I passionately believe in women's right to their own changing space. Because I'm aware of the increased risk it puts them under to violate that right. Because I don't want to teach my DS that its OK to disregard females' rights because it happens to inconvenience him, or that, in such cases, it's always the males' rights that supersede the females'.

Perhaps if more parents brought our sons up to respect women more - and disregarded the ridiculous gender stereotypes that are straight-jacketing people the way they are today - we wouldn't be in a situation now where a be-penised person was perceived as such a threat within an all-female space. Just perhaps.

Report, report, report.

You need to say something. If he had been 10 seconds earlier, you’d have been standing their topless. That’s not OK. The girls need to get changed in their own because he cannot go into the women’s changing room. I’m sure other parents wouldn’t be happy if their 10/11 year old daughter had to change in front of a grown man.

You must say something. You should probably have a few friends/family email in asking them their policy on this etc as well, to make more of an impact and have them actually do something.

I'd report to the swimming school - and ask if they are the correct people to deal with the complaint.

YANBU in any way shape or form.

He’s a prick. The usual acceptable age for using changing rooms for the opposite sex is 8. If the girls were younger then he should accompany them in the men’s changing rooms.

And this is the whole reason why all changing rooms should be mixed sex and cubicles. Over 8 they can't go in the men's. Brownies starts from 7 so could well have been 7 and 8 and I certainly wouldn't be happy with having mine out my sight while changing. Dad had no where to get his children changed. No he shouldn't have come in and yes somewhere should be provided.

No, what they need are parents who teach and enforce standards of behaviour, so they don't require supervision once they're at an age where they should be capable of getting changed without messing about.

Well, yes, but there are a lot of these children behaving like it so I think at least some of them have been taught how to behave but are just being silly because their friends are - they are still very young. I do think that it's young to be left completely unsupervised and they clearly can't pack their stuff up and put in lockers because they just leave it in the cubicles. Maybe the parents think they are managing just fine - how do they know otherwise?

PP1: i wouldn’t send an 8 and 10 year old in the changing room by themselves

PP2: Are you serious? That is quite ridiculous.

Why is that ridiculous? It might not be quite such an issue to send young daughters into an all-female changing space. But as for sending an 8-10 year-old boy into an all-male changing space, there is absolutely no way in hell this would happen under my watch as a parent.

Check out the statistics of the sex who are overwhelmingly responsible for crimes of abuse. Of course, not every man is a potential sex criminal or abuser. And equally, the odds of this kind of opportunistic crime happening to your child are incredibly rare.

But that doesn't mean they are non-existent. Imagine, God forbid, that this should happen to your 8-18 YO DS. Consider the size of a child that age against that of a grown man, and his chances of repelling him if it came to it.

He wouldn't stand an earthly.

He is wrong. 8&10yo girls are perfectly capable of changing alone - could be made simpler by them arriving with cozzies under clothes. No men in women's changing rooms is a perfectly normal rule.

I have the opposite situation with 9yo boy and he goes and changes in the men's alone and I am right outside the door while he changes (and he knows that there are, very very rarely, bullies who like to hurt a child who is alone) so if he feels worried he can yell for help and I would charge in there, but that never happens and I go through the women's to meet at poolside.

Our gym says 8 years old. So once your child is 8 they have to go to the one they will go to as an adult. It is possible for an 8 year old to do it but as people have mentioned they can be slow.

But I think it is right. Tell the pool. When you see him and if he tries again, point out that children have to get changed at school so they can do it.

I find it stressful waiting when it’s taken too long and you can’t hurry them up . But overall it’s better for everyone.

Kids need to learn how to shower. Collect their things. We over parent sometimes and being forced to stop has it’s benefits imo

But saying that mine is a private gym. I do worry. But overall I know it’s a better situation.

The OP clearly says that there are no disabled changing rooms

And I was clearly responding to the poster who thinks 8 and 10 yr olds can't dress themselves or behave properly.

he children, whilst technically able to change unsupervised [behave badly and make a mess]

Exactly what kind of building is going to solve the problem of badly behaved children in a swimming pool?

If their behaviour is so poor they cannot be trusted to dress themselves then the parents are the problem because no amount of magical buildings will fix behaviour.

I am aware that it is very trivial.

I disagree. I think it's very serious indeed, and the thin end of a very dangerous wedge.

Obviously the ideal is for there to be single sex provision plus provision for mixed sex family and disabled person/carer. And the single sex ideally should include some cubicles.

But in a situation like the OP describes where the physical constraints mean it's only possible to have open single sex changing then it must be absolutely single sex for the adults and older children - 7 or 8 is the usual sort of age. Nothing else makes any sense, let one adult go the opposite sex break that rule and you may as well stop pretending it's single sex . If you can't abide by that rule then that's your problem, you will just have to make other arrangements. Don't spoil it for everyone else.

Would the dad barging into the women's changing room have been happy if a second dad with daughters in the same class had also come in?

as for sending an 8-10 year-old boy into an all-male changing space, there is absolutely no way in hell this would happen under my watch as a parent.

What age is OK, though? Genuinely?