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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU - What would you have done?

793 replies

TheQueensCorgi · 30/06/2019 20:26

Name changed. Meeting at work (large company, very big on rights for all) and at the end we shook hands with others. I was the only woman in the room and when I got to a man (not white), I put out my hand and he said ‘Sorry I don’t shake hands with women’, and walked off.

I kind of stood there not really knowing what to do next, a few of the men who had overheard still in the room said he never shakes hands for religious reasons.

What would you have done? Would you brush this off? I felt like a second class citizen and quite embarrassed. Should I just be accepting of the fact this was his view or do I have the right to be annoyed ?

OP posts:
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6
SavingSpaces2019 · 30/06/2019 23:14

the fact you and posters like yourself aren't responding to the challenges against the "cultural" argument
What 'cultural argument'?
All i'm reading is a load of ignorant, 'white', western, 'christian' superiority, pretty much the same imperialist and colonial bullshit i've heard my whole life......

UrsulaPandress · 30/06/2019 23:15

Can he sit next to you?

Take instructions from you?

IncandescentShadow · 30/06/2019 23:15

I suspect that the way that the law currently stands that this would not be considered actionable discrimination on grounds of sex because of his religion. IMHO this is wrong, and there is currently a heirachy of protected characteristics, of which sex discrimination, particularly when it affects women, is rated of less importance than racial or religious discrimination.

What would have been better for someone in this man's position would have been to have not shaken anyone's hands. He could equally have explained to everyone that he did not do so for religious reasons, which would have been correct, because it would have been his religion causing him to single out women for different treatment. His conduct sounds graceless, ill thought out and rude.

UrsulaPandress · 30/06/2019 23:16

Eh?

BanjoStarz · 30/06/2019 23:16

I feel like some people are reading a different OP.

He didn’t apologise, someone else in the room noticed and surmised that the reason could be because he is Muslim.

So we still don’t know, he could be a misogynistic bastard or it could be his sky fairy tells him that women are inferior.

And we all know it’s rooted in that fact that many religions believe women are inferior. Even if they have the same rules for women (ie no handshaking with men) it’s mainly down to an original belief that women are property and no other man should touch their property Hmm

Whatever his reasons, it has no place in the workplace. He should treat everyone equally - so that means not shaking hands with anyone. That would be the simple and polite response.

alittleprivacy · 30/06/2019 23:16

The truth is, you do need to respect his religious beliefs. You don't have to like it (and I'd feel similarly miffed in your shoes) but you do have to accept it in the workplace.

No you actually don't. Nobody has to accept what is an extremely offensive belief for any reason. We have to accept people's rights to hold beliefs but we do not have to respect the beliefs themselves. Especially sexist/racist/homophobic bollocks.

Bluerussian · 30/06/2019 23:18

You're not being unreasonable because he was a bit rude and could have gone with it to save your embarrassment, it wouldn't have killed him. However Muslims and Orthodox Jews don't shake hands and most people know that. It wasn't personal. You won't offer a handshake in those circumstances again, just smile pleasantly and nod your head.

AliTheMinx · 30/06/2019 23:18

I work at a University and one of the lecturers is exactly the same for religious reasons. He's very lovely and respectful - but just has strong beliefs. He is married and I think his faith dictates that his wife should be the only woman he touches. I'm sure it's nothing personal, OP x

DishingOutDone · 30/06/2019 23:19

He could have put his right hand up, palm on chest and nodded slightly as a mark of respect. This then allows him to observe (what he considers) the demands of his faith whilst not showing you any disrespect.

pinkstripeycat · 30/06/2019 23:20

What about your views? In the UK it is exceptionally rude not to shake hands when someone offers you theirs. Exceptionally rude.

breakfastpizza · 30/06/2019 23:20

Not shaking someone's hand based on a protected characteristic is demeaning to the group being excluded. Religious nonsense beliefs don't get to supersede that.

Please complain.

pinkstripeycat · 30/06/2019 23:21

DishingOutDone

He could have put his right hand up, palm on chest and nodded slightly as a mark of respect. This then allows him to observe (what he considers) the demands of his faith whilst not showing you any disrespect.

Well said! This would have been SO much better and just as good as a handshake.

MyFriendGiraffrey · 30/06/2019 23:22

Fair enough if he can't shake a woman's hand due to religious reasons, an apology is all well and good. However immediately turning his back and walking away makes him rude. He could have exchanged pleasantries to soften the snub, for example said it was a pleasure to meet you, look forward to working with you etc.

blackteasplease · 30/06/2019 23:22

He should have shaken hands with no one. Then it wouldn't have compromised his religious beliefs while not treating you less favourably. Blindingly obvious I'd have thought!

Hefzi · 30/06/2019 23:23

So by the same logic of some posters here ("it's misogyny") a female not shaking hands with men is misandry...

He may well be a misogynist. He's definitely lacking in manners and grace. And from OP 's update, it's clear that he has other issues in relating to colleagues too - so he's not employee of the year by any stretch. I think it's entirely appropriate for his line manager or similar to address the handshake issue.

And a big wave to OP from an ex-engineer Grin Except in my day, the etiquette issue I struggled with was French male colleagues doing the double kiss - and Germans who insisted on addressing everyone as Herr/Frau Doktor and thus extending every meeting by about 300% Grin

Glad it looks like being resolved, OP

HiJenny35 · 30/06/2019 23:23

I don't have to respect his religious beliefs if his religious beliefs discriminate me as a woman. His beliefs do not top trump my rights to not be treated differently to male colleagues. I'm in a professional situation not personal, if he doesn't want to shake my hand he shouldn't shake anyone's, or he has to work within a area where only his religion is present such as a religious establishment. I don't care what his religious beliefs are we do not allow discrimination. Allowing people to treat women and men differently in professional roles is exactly why women are never treated as equal. I made a formal complaint when it happened to me, was ignored and then made a further complaint to management. He was asked to not shake anyone's hands from then on, which I am totally fine with. These things matter.

ViserionTheDragon · 30/06/2019 23:25

Middle Eastern background here. What he should have done afterwards was put his hand on his chrst and do a small bow - that is what is done as a sign of respect and is the alternative to not shaking hands. Agree that his delivery was a bit blunt and was rude not to acknowledge you properly. He probably comes from an ultra conservative family.

I think the no handshake applies after marriage/Mecca pilgramage anyway.

Ilovemypantry · 30/06/2019 23:26

YANBU OP, I’m afraid I would have said something along the lines of that in this country it is customary to shake hands of both male and female work colleagues. If this is a problem for him them maybe this isn’t the country for him?

Freddiefox · 30/06/2019 23:26

You're not being unreasonable because he was a bit rude and could have gone with it to save your embarrassment, it wouldn't have killed him. However Muslims and Orthodox Jews don't shake hands and most people know that. It wasn't personal. You won't offer a handshake in those circumstances again, just smile pleasantly and nod your head.

Why should the op change her behaviour to suit someone else religion. It’s his religion and it’s down to him to find a way to practise his religion without discriminating against other people.
It’s not for the women to adapt. He very easily could avoid this situation by not shaking anyone’s hands.

UrsulaPandress · 30/06/2019 23:27

Spose the alternative is to grab him by the cock.

Ilovemypantry · 30/06/2019 23:28

HiJenny35
Totally agree with you.

Freddiefox · 30/06/2019 23:29

He could have put his right hand up, palm on chest and nodded slightly as a mark of respect. This then allows him to observe (what he considers) the demands of his faith whilst not showing you any disrespect.

Only if he did this for the men as well.

RB68 · 30/06/2019 23:30

I think he could have handled it better but also it is up to you to be aware and informed of these cultural issues in a multicultural situation. I have worked with many ethnic and or religious groups and you learn to wait for a hand to be offered and if it is not then a often head bow and thanks is offered instead. I do also think he was insensitive in his abruptness and lack of comment or thanks etc which is what the handshake was representing. He wasn't respectful in his rejection, but maybe he felt you were not respectful offering or expecting a handshake if he felt his religion was obvious etc. At 22 he sounds inexperienced to me

RosaWaiting · 30/06/2019 23:30

“. If this is a problem for him them maybe this isn’t the country for him?”

How does that work if he’s from this country?

LizzieSiddal · 30/06/2019 23:31

He’s allowed not to shake someone hand if that’s what he wishes, however he was rude. He should have at least said something along the lines of “It was lovely to work with you today”.

To just say “Sorry, I don’t shake hands with women” and walk off, is dreadful.