AIBU - What would you have done?

[TheQueensCorgi]

Name changed. Meeting at work (large company, very big on rights for all) and at the end we shook hands with others. I was the only woman in the room and when I got to a man (not white), I put out my hand and he said ‘Sorry I don’t shake hands with women’, and walked off.

I kind of stood there not really knowing what to do next, a few of the men who had overheard still in the room said he never shakes hands for religious reasons.

What would you have done? Would you brush this off? I felt like a second class citizen and quite embarrassed. Should I just be accepting of the fact this was his view or do I have the right to be annoyed ?

Neither men nor women who are Muslim shake hands with the opposite sex. It's not just a man thing. There are plenty of professional Muslim women around and they just don't do it. However most people are aware of that convention so don't offer a hand.

Hindus are the same, the conventional greeting is putting both hands together, bowing head slightly and saying, "Namaste", but a smile and a Hello will do as well.

The strict Orthodox Jews do not shake hands with anyone.

From personal experience, I was called a racist because I couldn’t eat meat on a religious day. Not quite sure how that works tbh. But unfortunately you do hear a lot of people playing the race card for all the wrong reasons. Just because people don’t share the same beliefs as me doesn’t mean I have the right to make them feel awkward about it!

@Isthisafreename

@Bandara - I most definitely was not doing a "woe is me, the English are horrible" thing. @LadyInParis stated had her background led her to believe that catholics were the baddies. I gave her am opposing viewpoint, which she seemed to appreciate.

Your post was extremely one sided. You only mentioned the appealing actions of the catholic church, when in fact, every single one of the atrocities you mention was also conducted by protestant churches in Ireland and abroad. Your post was very much of the "woe is me, catholic church is evil and no good ever came from it" whereas the reality is different. Yes, evil was committed by the catholic church but evil was also committed by other churches. Good was also done by the catholic church and other churches. If it was not for them running schools and hospitals in the early days of the state, we would have been a much poorer nation as a result.

I did indeed appreciate it, so I don't understand why bandara chose to jump on a discussion between two people about information on something I was ignorant about and turn it into a totally different topic. It was just a sort of 'as an aside isthisafreename, if I'm wrong about the different types of churches, could you please educate me a little bit so I'm no longer as ignorant'. Which is all it needed to be, and she was kind enough to explain what exactly I was confused about. That's all it needed to be. Then you come on with your post, which I didn't say was one sided- but actually said YOU essentially implied that SHE was being one sided. Nowhere did I state you were. Although you kind of were. But again, it was just unnecessary. I just asked for advice and gratefully received some. It didn't need to turn into a church vs church who did the worst things etc etc. As isthisafreename said and I quoted her; churches of all faiths have done terrible things, and beautiful helpful things. I think we all know that by now. I can't believe I'm even getting into this because I'm not religious either. I just wanted information so as not to be ignorant. I didn't want information on all the churches and all their bad acts. I asked about a specific branch that I was confused about. She just gave me some information. That's all.

Sorry; this was aimed at @Bandara not @isthisafreename!!

I guess what I'm trying to say @Bandara, is that the information I asked for was welcomed and asked for. If you also have information on an opposing view, or different viewpoints, why not just tag me and politely suggest you're offering extra information that you feel is important and give that information. Rather than coming on and posting a rather combative post aimed at a poster who simply answered my question? I would have welcomed any information, that's fine, but you didn't need to jump on someone who was giving her information. I'm sure she is aware of the fact that both sides so to speak, have horrible histories. But i didn't ask about that. I just think if you wanted to get your feelings and information out there, as an alternate piece of history, you could have just tagged me and gave information. It was just kind of unfair to jump on another poster for answering my question. Other than that none of it really matters, I can now go and educate myself on the histories of both. I just feel it was unnecessary and very clearly triggered something for you that upset you. You didn't need to feel that way, it isn't that important to any of us in the sense that it isn't happening now, and I was just curious.

If his religion means he can’t be polite a courteous in a way that The society in which he lives seems to be the standard way to meet and great he needs to assess his suitability for a job. If I met with someone in a professional capacity who wouldn’t shake my hand as I was a woman I wouldn’t be engaging their services as I would take it as a sign he didn’t respect me. If you live in a society you respect and assimilate their customs

@Lifeover

@LadyInParis what precisely do you disagree with? Not abiding by societal and professional norms? Being treated differently from colleagues because I’m a woman? Not buying services off someone I don’t think respects me? Or not being as woke as you?

It’s not “woke” to recognise different people have different etiquette/behaviour, nor is it “PC”, or any of the other cliches people come out with when they only want to cater for people “like them”.

What twattery is this? He could have done it better, but since none of us know what lead up to this, let’s accept that sorry I can’t shake your hand, just means sorry and move on?

You are essentially expecting a man to go against his religious beliefs to make you feel better.
He's not refusing to shake your hand because you are a second class citizen it is because you are woman and a form of respect for women in their religion. Some of the replies on this post are quite disturbing. Total lack of disregard to a religion comprising of billions of people. Shameful.

@mamimogo - You are essentially expecting a man to go against his religious beliefs to make you feel better.

Nobody (with maybe one or two exceptions) is expecting him to go against his religious beliefs. However, people are expecting him to demonstrate equivalent symbols of respect to both men and women. The symbols don't have to be identical but they should be equivalent in the sense that if one gets a handshake, the other should get a hand on heart with nod of head or similar. Turning his back on her and leaving the room is not an equivalent symbol of respect.

@Isthisafreename you might want to read through these comments one more time. I'm disgusted.

But the man is in a professional environment where the unifying culture is to treat everyone with respect and to treat them equally. If he didn’t want to shake a woman’s hand he shouldn’t have shaken anyone’s. It might be a sign of respect in Islam but a sign of disrespect in a professional environment. The environment they were in was a professional environment, that should have been the unifying culture. If we don’t try and find a unifying culture in environments where people of many backgrounds mingle no one is ever going to know how to behave. The norms of a professional environment in the uk is to shake hands with both men and women

@mamimogo - you might want to read through these comments one more time. I'm disgusted.

I have read through them. While there are one or two exceptions, the vast majority of posters state that he should give an equivalent symbol of respect to women. They do not say that the symbol needs to involve touching a woman.

How many of the comments have you read? From your post, it seems you area focusing on the very few who believe (wrongly in my opinion) that he should shake hands with all or none and who don't accept an equivalent symbol of respect.

So if I am happy to shake hands with all my colleagues except Harry, because Harry is gay and under my interpretation of my religion that makes him a hell-bound sodomite, would that be OK?

Clue: no it wouldn't.

I think it’s a very dangerous topic in today’s society because if you raise this as a concern to you or state you felt uncomfortable, they could (not would) them use the race card against you. Either way, you’re made to feel pants all because some people don’t take into consideration how their actions may make their people feel. If you were to mention this to him and he genuinely apologised it would all be resolved but as he apparently just walked off I doubt that’s likely.
Bottom line is, yes we work in a multicultural society. We don’t expect people to adapt to everything this involves (I hear a lot of people say “they’ve come to our country they shouldn’t wear Asian clothing, I disagree with this but that my opinion) but the least we can all do is consider our society when acting on our own beliefs. Just because I don’t eat meat on Diwali doesn’t mean I will tell my colleagues to do the same!

How would anyone know you were a sodomite at work? Surely if you are sharing your sexual proclivities with your colleagues, you might expect announcing you “do anal” is unlikely to make anyone want to shake your hand?

they could (not would) them use the race card against you.
Who’d do what?

I wonder whether this young man realised at some point during the handshaking that he seemingly initiated that he was about to make a prat of himself. Rather than explain himself properly he made some half arsed statement about not shaking hands with women then ran away.

Nothing really to do with religious practices but an awful lot to go with being an inexperienced 22 year old with delusions of grandeur.

I would say that he has a lot to learn.

@Isthisafreename No I'm actually referring to these types of posts. Which there are many of. I've highlighted "a few". Quickly turned into an islamophobic thread. Not surprised.

*Yanbu to feel that way. He way rude and unprofessional but he will get away with it due to his 'religious beliefs'.

I dont respect that 'religious ideology' in the least.

YABU to feel anything other than that he is a second class citizen for allowing his religion to make him discriminate against other humans. Personally I’d be a bit bemused but ultimately feel sorry for him.

His beliefs shouldn’t affect you. He should adapt instead, i.e. don’t shake anyone’s hands, or accept that in this country, in a professional setting, you should shake everyone’s hands. Religion is used as an excuse for many things that are morally wrong, in this case sexism.

I don't respect any religion which believes women are in any way 'less'than men.
Women's rights unfortunately will always be considered less than those of men to practice discriminatory 'beliefs'.

Bloody rude. Any religion which treats women as second class citizens is an outdated disgrace. But because we are all expected to put up with it in the name of (ironic) progress and a multicultural society, if you kick off, you'll look bad instead of him.
YANBU, he (and his religion) are.

You have to accept that religions have stupid rules and some religions and cultures are frankly sexist.

To all those saying that the op should respect his views, would you respect a Fundamentalist Christian saying that being same sex attracted is deviant and disgusting, would you respect their views? Would you think well that's what they believe so it's ok?
He wouldn't shake the OP's hand because she, as a Female is an inferior person.
There is no proof that there is a God or an Allah or any other higher power.
Any religious belief that insists that non believers and Women are inferior people has no place in this world.
So op in my book, he was extremely rude and you are definitely not being unreasonable

I would have eye rolled as loudly as could. I may have even snuck a little tut in. But I don't have much tolerance for things like that, I don't care that it's a "religious" thing.

His choice about how he externalises his religious beliefs should not trump your right to be treated equally. This is misogyny.

Either he accepts that reality and treats everyone equally or he finds works in an environment where it doesn't offend anyone. His choice. The OP should not be have to put up with this and her employer should make it clear that they do not put up with it either.

"I felt like a second class citizen."
You are in his eyes

"His choice about how he externalises his religious beliefs should not trump your right to be treated equally. This is misogyny"
Well said. Can’t believe the apologists here

It has fuck all to do with religious beliefs, it's misogyny clear and simple. It's an easy quick fix for misogynistic men to refuse to interact with women.
If their defence is 'it's against my religion' then they're misogynistic. It doesn't matter if their chosen fairytale is Christianity, Orthodox Judaism, Muslim or any other fairytale. Whoever they believe in they don't like and they distrust Women. To say women are unclean is revolting. Utterly revolting

If their defence is 'it's against my religion' then they're misogynistic

Many posters have said that Muslim women wouldn't shake hands with men - does that make those women misogynistic then?

A woman refused to shake my husband's hand, offered no equal alternative but shook my hand - what did that make her, in your view? Only according to your statement it's misogynistic to refuse to do something because it's against your religion.

@GnomeDePlume - as I said, there are a small number of posters out of the 650 odd posts on this thread that believe he should go against his beliefs or who have expressed . The vast majority think he was rude and disrespectful for giving a symbol of respect to the men but not giving an equivalent symbol to the woman.

Some of the quotes you have included are not anti-religion. For example, "His choice about how he externalises his religious beliefs should not trump your right to be treated equally. This is misogyny"

His right to his religious beliefs do not trump the op's right to be treated equally. Religion and sex are both protected characteristics. He needs to treat men and women equally. To do otherwise, while maybe not misogyny, is, at the very least, discrimination.

Equally "Either he accepts that reality and treats everyone equally or he finds works in an environment where it doesn't offend anyone. His choice. The OP should not be have to put up with this and her employer should make it clear that they do not put up with it either.". He is required by law to treat people equally. This does not mean he has to shake hands with women. However, he does need to find a way of displaying equal respect to both men and women.

@DecomposingComposers - Many posters have said that Muslim women wouldn't shake hands with men - does that make those women misogynistic then?

Of course not. They are refusing to touch a man! How on earth could that be interpreted as misogyny?

Only according to your statement it's misogynistic to refuse to do something because it's against your religion.

That's a bizarre reading of what was said. Misogyny has nothing to do with religion per se.

You're expected to respect that he can disrespect you? I'd be upset, too. I'd maybe raise it with a line manager; he needs to treat all his colleagues the same and if that means not shaking hands with anyone, then that's what he should do.

@mamimogo

No, what is shameful is that this man showed total disregard for the etiquettes of the business environment in this country (an environment in which he is hoping to work). If he cannot/will not accept the shaking of hands of men and WOMEN is customary and expected, then he needs to look elsewhere for employment.