AIBU - What would you have done?

[TheQueensCorgi]

Name changed. Meeting at work (large company, very big on rights for all) and at the end we shook hands with others. I was the only woman in the room and when I got to a man (not white), I put out my hand and he said ‘Sorry I don’t shake hands with women’, and walked off.

I kind of stood there not really knowing what to do next, a few of the men who had overheard still in the room said he never shakes hands for religious reasons.

What would you have done? Would you brush this off? I felt like a second class citizen and quite embarrassed. Should I just be accepting of the fact this was his view or do I have the right to be annoyed ?

Religious beliefs or not, it’s still rude to treat women and homosexuals like second class citizens. I’m sorry but prejudice on the ground of religious belief is bullshit- should I say that to the face of the person refusing to shake my hand? Probably not because I’d be infringing on some equality act policy.

Ironic.

@Isthisafreename I apologise, you're right. Not the lot of you. If people think he was rude about it fair enough whatever, that's an opinion and were all entitled to those in terms of politeness and generally being kind. The people saying he has his rights fair enough too, he does. It's the islamaphobic posts I was referring to. Because we don't have a right to that. Genuinely sorry. I guess all the islamaphobic posts just jumped at me over and over and I lumped it all in together and was wrong for that.

@lifeinthedeep Christians also prejudice against women and homosexuals. In the bible were told we are to essentially bow down to our husbands. It's even in marriage vows that we "obey" the husband. It's also the most homophobic religion I have ever known. But let's pick on the Islam's yes? Like I said, educate yourself.

So islam is sexist, homophobic, etc. You don't see that you are islamaphobic?

That's ironic.

@LadyInParis - @lifeinthedeep didn't mention Islam in her post. She referred to religious beliefs. That presumably includes variants of Judaism, Christianity and any other religion that treats women and homosexuals as second class citizens. In fact, most posters have not mentioned Islam, presumably as we don't know whether he is Muslim.

Religious beliefs or not, it’s still rude to treat women and homosexuals like second class citizens
Is not shaking someone’s hand “treating them like a second class citizen”?
You know we have similar practices that are different for men and women. For example it’s hot here today. In my small rural town a fair number of men are walking around topless. None of the women are. Are we all second class citizens, or perhaps we just except this cultural norm and understand that boobs on show (unless bfing) is very much NOT acceptable in the uk. In other parts of the world topless is fine, bare legs less so. We don’t all have to conform to white middle class Christian manners, they are NOT universally admired nor the pinnacle of evolution, and the world would be a poorer and less thoughtful place if they were.

@Isthisafreename I agree, but the inference is there since he, according to op, "wasn't white ", therefore with the not touching, and by deduction, it's most likely he is Muslim. According to many posts. Even if he isn't, most posters have assumed he is. In terms of religion alone she's right. It can be sexist and homophobic. But if people only have a problem with Islam, that is a problem. This is my point. This is what's mostly happening here. It might not even be a religious thing, but a cultural one. So why all the religion, in particular islam, bashing? Why doesn't op take him aside and explain how his actions made her feel, and ask him to educate her briefly on why he practises this, and also request that he finds another way to practise it that doesn't make her upset? It's like instead of communicating and educating and discussing things with people who have upset us, people have just made a ton of assumptions and bashed on religion, the man himself, all sorts. Don't people normally just communicate? "Mr X, can I just have a chat with you please? The other day you shook all the men's hands and not mine, and it made me feel like a second class citizen, and upset me. Would you be comfortable in explaining why you don't shake women's hands please? And also thinking up a way to practise this without singling out women? For example giving everyone just a head nod, or something?" It's simple. If he responds like a dick head, he's just a dick head. Not a religious dick head, not a Muslim dickhead, just a human dick head. Then she can go to the manager or whoever, and explain what he initially did, what she tried to do to understand, and his dick head reaction, and thus create a situation where this issue is wiped out by management. Or maybe he will respond well, and she will then understand his reasons (even if she doesn't agree with them) and be happy that he will find another way and everyone is happy. I don't understand this doom and gloom end of the world religious rights are ruining everything in this country view from some people on here. Whether Islam, Judaism, or Christianity. Or simply just culture. Fact is, everyone has religious rights. That is part of the rights act in this country. So no, she can't infringe on those rights. Because he has them, we all do. It's not ironic, it's law. I guess that was my point. And it applies to @lifeinthedeep too. If she doesn't believe in a certain, or any, religion, by law she is protected if for instance, she worked with predominantly religious people and they threw a religious party or something. She has rights not to partake, because of her beliefs. It's law. Would it be ironic then, for her, that there were no laws, and she had to partake in an act she didn't believe in, and thus feel very uncomfortable, and the religious people were allowed to tell her that her beliefs, or lack thereof, were bullshit?

@Itwouldtakemuchmorethanthis - Is not shaking someone’s hand “treating them like a second class citizen”?hmm

Showing a symbol of respect to one group while declining to show an equivalent symbol of respect to another group IS treating the second group as second class citizens. As has been repeatedly stated, it is not the lack of a handshake that is rude and disrespectful, it is singling out a person on the basis of their sex, as the only person in a group not to be given a symbol of respect.

@Isthisafreename But shaking someone's hand isn't a sign of respect in all cultures. In some, it's incredibly disrespectful. So why can't we be inclusive, and allow for someone's beliefs? If we don't like, understand, or are hurt by them, why can't we communicate that and find a different way, that then becomes inclusive for both the woman in question, and the man too? Why can't we communicate and compromise?

I've sort of had the opposite. I'm half-Indian and people often wrongly assume I'm Middle Eastern/Muslim (especially when I have a tan). Recently, I was at a meeting in Amsterdam when a colleague shook hands with every female but me. I was the one who had to initiate the handshake after an awkward pause, I can only assume he thought I was Muslim and was trying to be respectful/courteous. It annoyed me I'll be honest.

This sort of thing happens regularly, e.g I ordered a pepperoni pizza at Bella Italia last week and the waitress pointed out it contained pork.

Not every brown person is Mulsim (and it's not Islamophobia to point that out).

This sort of thing happens regularly, e.g I ordered a pepperoni pizza at Bella Italia last week and the waitress pointed out it contained pork.

That’s kind of sweet of her.

SagAloojah - you missed my point

@LadyInPariis - But shaking someone's hand isn't a sign of respect in all cultures. In some, it's incredibly disrespectful.

Can you please read what I'm actually writing? I said he gave a symbol of respect (the handshake) to the men. He initiated the handshakes so obviously meant them as a symbol of respect. The issue is he did not offer the woman an equivalent symbol of respect. That symbol did not have to be a handshake. It could have been a bow, hand to heart, fingertips together, whatever. That would be inclusive and tolerant, which by the way is a two-way street.

Stating you don't shake women's hands, turning your back and walking away is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a symbol of respect.

I agree that he could have offered another kind of respectful greeting to the op but the op went up to shake his hand so didn't give him a chance. I doubt he meant it as a snub.

Too much is being made of this. In a multicultural society like ours surely everyone knows about not 'shaking hands' and other conventions. When in doubt, don't.

Isthisafreename, you’re assuming it is a sign of disrespect to not shake a woman’s hand. That is your assumption

@AtmosClock - you’re assuming it is a sign of disrespect to not shake a woman’s hand. That is your assumption

No. I'm assuming it is a sign of disrespect to show a sign of respect (handshake or equivalent) to everyone bar one person. The sign of respect is irrelevant. The same sign of respect does not have to be used for all.

But it’s your assumption nonetheless

Given that the OP was unaware of this as a possibility, it is quite possible she missed any attempt from the man to be respectful. To begin with he apologized

@AtmosClock - But it’s your assumption nonetheless

That doesn't even make sense. I am still not assuming the lack of a handshake is a sign of disrespect.

However, it is disrespectful to show a sign of respect to everyone bar one person. That is a very reasonable assumption that most rational people would make.

Given that the OP was unaware of this as a possibility, it is quite possible she missed any attempt from the man to be respectful. To begin with he apologized

He said "sorry, I don't shake women's hands", turned on his heel and walked out. Hard to see any sign of respect there. The appropriate, respectful response on his part to the op putting her hand out would be to say he can't shake her hand while giving her an equivalent symbol of respect, such as hand on heart with a little bow, finger tips together with a nod. Turning his back on her and walking out was not a symbol of respect. That is the way most people whose religion prohibits contact with members of the opposite sex deal with situations like this.

This man needs to understand that what he did was disrespectful and rude. If it were me I would be going to my manager and HR. I would be expecting that he is told that his behaviour was not acceptable. If he is refusing on religious grounds then he needs to explain this in a polite way. Pethaps he should also expect that people may not choose to shake his hand. Sex is also a protected characteristic under equality law. If he is customet facing this could be an issue.

I expect he might suggest diversity training for both of you @cupofteaandcake I am also pretty sure a man following this practice would be used to others not shaking his hand because that’s the community he comes from.
Why is it so difficult to understand not everyone is the same?

I know we are not all the same. I understand why he might not shake my hand but he needs to understand that it is not the norm to do this. Personally I think it is the job of the person who is acting outside cultural norms of a country that needs to understand and explain.

@Isthisafreename I dont think you understand me either. Shaking hands of men may be a respectful act for him, but in some cultures it's normal for men to shake men's hands, and offensive to shake a woman's. So he could have been trying to show respect to both sexes according to the culture and/ or religion that he knows. It is in our culture perhaps, disrespectful. But to him, it is not only normal but it's in his belief system clearly in a strong way. I did agree he may have been rude about it, but we weren't there. Tone and inflection of voice, as well as facial expressions, make up a lottttt when it comes to something sounding rude or not. He could have said it in a gentle apologetic voice, with an apologetic facial expression for example. Or he could have said it with an abrupt no fucks given tone, with a mean look, and turned and abruptly walked off. I didn't disagree about the rude part. He should have offered a different alternative to the handshake, but he could be so used to women taking the not touching as respect in itself that he didn't, because we don't know who he interacts with in his personal life, or he could be embarrassed, or unsure, or not quite yet used to what else to offer that doesn't upset our culture in terms of women. If any of those are true then that's on him to learn and he needs to do that pronto. Or he could be an arsehole. I'm pretty sure I already agreed with you on some points, disagreed on others and explained why for both. How am I not reading what you're saying? Culture clashes are very complex. I'm just offering different possibilities. He could be just a dick head as I said. We don't know but unless she communicates with him she won't know. Or she lets it drop. It was a handshake issue.

Personally I think it is the job of the person who is acting outside cultural norms of a country that needs to understand and explain. but not the other way round? Why?

Given the multicultural society we now live in frankly it is minefield with everyone's different beliefs/cultures/preferences. Where your beliefs fall outside the norm then it is you that should go out of your way to fit in and not expect people to magically know and understand your actions.

I don't see the problem of the cultural norms of the country being the baseline, if you fall out of that you make the effort. I have lived overseas, I did my best to understand the culture of the country I lived in out of respect for the people who lived in that country. Even if my religious beliefs had been different for example I would take it upon myself to adapt where I could. I would certainly not just expect people to accept my actions which may be fine to me but not to them.

Christians also prejudice against women and homosexuals. In the bible were told we are to essentially bow down to our husbands. It's even in marriage vows that we "obey" the husband. It's also the most homophobic religion I have ever known.

I’m Christian and I’ve never been taught or pushed to behave like this towards anyone. The old CofE Christianity that I’ve been brought up in is pretty laid back. We’re all about tea and biscuits and being good to each other

@AtmosClock

Isthisafreename, you’re assuming it is a sign of disrespect to not shake a woman’s hand. That is your assumption

I agree here. Touching a woman, in some cultures, is a sign of disrespect. And so he respected all the men, and respected her, by not touching her. If this is his culture, we don't know do we. Besides all that, no-one is owed touching by someone. He owes her nothing. Yet he said he was sorry and said he doesn't touch women. He could have just walked off. He didn't. She isn't owed a handshake by anyone. Culture or not. If she feels insecure about that or that he's being sexist she can report it. But there are no laws saying everyone is owed a handshake. So take culture out of it for a second. He doesn't want to shake a woman's hand. For whatever reason. She reports it. He explains to his manager that either it is on his culture to not touch women, or he has no explanation other than he doesn't want to touch a woman. In either case, he will be treated according by his HR. As someone else said, too much is being made of this.

And to @cupofteaandcake No, no it isn't at all in any way. No-one has to follow or explain or understand any "norms" at all, apart from the law. So no. Just no. It would be nice if people communicated such things so as to avoid this great big hoo haa though. But by your logic if it's up to the person to explain and understand their culture "isn't normal", then it's also up to the people like op to accept it without trying to change his culture and getting all upset when he doesn't want to shake her hand.

Someone else mentioned a good point that she stuck out her hand before he had chance to do anything except to be forced to say sorry I don't touch women. Then he's possibly embarrassed, possibly upset that he had to draw attention to this culture difference. Perhaps he was going to bow or whatever, but was put in the position of verbally and physically rejecting her handshake straight away. We don't know! Lot of guessing on here, including me. All I can say is she needs to report it, or may be try to be patient and kind and talk to him, ask him, in private. Not in one room alone, that might cause more issues. But to one side away from others. Or she can just accept that he has a different culture/ religion, was maybe a bit abrupt about it according to our customs (not all customs are super polite. Some have a cultural norm of just being direct) and move on