AIBU - What would you have done?

[TheQueensCorgi]

Name changed. Meeting at work (large company, very big on rights for all) and at the end we shook hands with others. I was the only woman in the room and when I got to a man (not white), I put out my hand and he said ‘Sorry I don’t shake hands with women’, and walked off.

I kind of stood there not really knowing what to do next, a few of the men who had overheard still in the room said he never shakes hands for religious reasons.

What would you have done? Would you brush this off? I felt like a second class citizen and quite embarrassed. Should I just be accepting of the fact this was his view or do I have the right to be annoyed ?

@Isthisafreename I didn't say she disrespected his religion anywhere, I said she disrespected him which she has. The overall putting up a post about someone who can't defend themself is disrespectful in itself. He wasn't rude though, just practising his religion in peace.

Both religious and sexual discrimination is both illegal from an equality act perspective- so it’s a tough one.

I think I comes down to practicality.

I have worked with Muslim men who have refused to accept me as their “senior” at work - let alone shake my hand! As in, would ignore direct and relevant work requests...

Therefore if your religious beliefs rob you of common decency and or allow you to perform basic tasks in your role - you are incapable of performing your duties in an employed position as per your contract - and you need to find a new job.

I have found there are zero “reasonable adjustments” to be made to accommodate sexism in the work place - even if it’s on religious grounds

@sunshinemode - It’s just a different way of greeting.

Saying that you don't shake hands with women and then walking away is not a different way of greeting. It is rude and disrespectful. Particularly when you have already shaken hands with all the men.

Putting your hand on your chest and nodding, putting your finger tips together and tipping them towards the other person, smiling and bowing slightly are all different forms of greeting that do not involve touch. I have encountered all of these and simply thought that the person had a different approach and I appreciated their politeness.

Therefore if your religious beliefs rob you of common decency and or allow you to perform basic tasks in your role - you are incapable of performing your duties in an employed position as per your contract - and you need to find a new job.

I think this is the crux. The man’s unwillingness to shake hands, while embarrassing, doesn’t seem to have stopped anyone doing their job.

Atmos but the crux is they are also being incredibly sexist by refusing - despite sex being a protected..

What reasonable adjustments should an employer make to accommodate one rule other another?

What reasonable adjustments should an employer make to accommodate one rule other another

It seems quite simple in this case. The man can keep his religious freedom by not shaking the hand of a woman. I don't see anyone has a fundamental right to have their hand shook, even if it is "discriminating" by sex. I think it would be vastly different if he refused to work with a woman

@Fowles94 - I didn't say she disrespected his religion anywhere,

Yes you did. You said: You are rude and disrespectful if you can't respect another person's religion. He has displayed nothing personal against you

And no, he wasn't practising his religion in peace. He was practising it in a way that was discriminatory, rude, and disrespectful. I would consider peaceful practice of religion to be practice that avoids unnecessary and deliberate upset and bad feeling.

As he lives in a society where touching members of the opposite sex is generally accepted, and where discrimination on the grounds of sex is illegal, it is unlikely that he is unaware of how his actions could come across. He initiated the hand shaking which resulted in the op them putting her hand out to shake his. He could have dealt with it in a polite, respectful manner, while still adhering to his religious beliefs. He chose not to.

I just don't really see where he was being rude. Yes, he "discriminated" by sex, but we do that all the time (in my culture, we shake the hands of men, and kiss women on the cheeks) and not in a way that stopped anyone doing their job. He explained, or at least stated quite clearly (he perhaps felt it didn't need a detailed explanation) why he didn't shake hands.

Yabu. If that is a genuinely held religious belief, then you would be rude not to respect it. I understand that differentiating between male and female in this way is generally unacceptable in the 🇬🇧 but maybe you could forget the gender element and ask yourself whether you would think it rude for a Muslim or Jew to refuse to eat bacon or a catholic priest to refuse to visit a strip club?

I know many British muslims and we all shake hands with the opposite sex.

Sorry haven’t read the whole thread.

But - suppose he said he was from the Dutch Reformed Church and didn’t shake black peoples’ hands? Or Jews? No one would put up with that. In other words racism is treated more seriously than sexism. At the least the firm should have a policy that anyone feeling that way should shake no one’s hand. Even if that is still indulging his sexism to some extent.

Christ that’s not acceptable in the workplace. If a member of my staff said they would only shake hands with men I would be really quite angry. Religious belief is never allowed to overrule the other protected characteristics in the equality act. If he said he wouldn’t touch someone who was gay or black for ‘religious reasons’ we wouldn’t tolerate it, I don’t know why we should just because it’s women being discriminated against.

Yet it it is also illegal to treat someone differently based on their sex.

I wouldn’t want to feel treated differently because of my sex - and I wouldn’t want to feel embarrassed or belittled in a situation like this....

In my own personal and cultural beliefs, I am completely agnostic, shaking hands is a sign of mutual respect. In a professional environment, where a handshake is common place as a sign of respect, I would expect my handshake to be reciprocated- unless that person didn’t respect me...

Are my beliefs any different?

FYI I am just playing devils advocate here - although the above is partially true

As a poster said earlier, in Muslim countries, at work men can shake hands with women. I read a book about an American woman doing research in various Muslim countries and she was treated, as she described it,as an ' honorary man', so couldeat with men and, presumably shake their hands.

Yet it it is also illegal to treat someone differently based on their sex.

No it isn't!

I think I would have said out loud "That's a shame".
and kind of marked him down as a weirdo, tbh.

There is strain of Judaism where males mustn't touch anything a woman has touched while menstruating, or a menstruating woman herself. more weirdos

www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/muslim-job-applicant-who-refused-handshake-wins-discrimination-case-in-sweden-1.3599409

Interesting story which is a case of the balance between religious liberty.

www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/d/n/Religion-or-Belief-and-the_workplace-guide.pdf

ACAS also have guidance on the issue

@AtmosClock - I just don't really see where he was being rude.

He gave a symbol of respect (the handshake) to the men. He declined to give any symbol of respect (handshake or another respectful alternative such as hand on heart and a nod) to the op. That is rude.

@Mary54 - Yabu. If that is a genuinely held religious belief, then you would be rude not to respect it.

The issue is not his religious belief but rather his implementation of it in a rude and disrespectful manner. Most people manage to uphold their religious beliefs in a polite, respectful way.

He gave a symbol of respect (the handshake) to the men. He declined to give any symbol of respect (handshake or another respectful alternative such as hand on heart and a nod) to the op. That is rude.

Only the OP and the man really know, but I think her reaction to his simple statement was coloured by her shock - she admits early on she was embarrassed and felt like a second class citizen, even if wasn't the intention. She may have misinterpreted as well

@AtmosClock - it's always a good idea to actually read the links you put on sites. The Irish Times article says "The labour court ruled 3-2 on Wednesday that while the company was right to require that employees treat men and women equally, including in how they greet others, it could not require that the greeting in question involve shaking hands. What matters, they said, was consistency in how men and women were greeted."
This is exactly the behaviour many people have said they would expect of this man, he should be required to treat men and women equally by giving them the same sign of respect.
OP - that link might actually be useful for you in contacting your HR team, employment case law is always helpful.

it's always a good idea to actually read the links you put on sites

Thanks, I did

In this situation I would have just said 'I'm sorry, I hadn't realized' and moved on.
I want to have the right to refuse to shake someone's hand if I don't want to, I want other people to enjoy the same freedom. It's not personal.

I would like you be taken aback at the refusal. It's almost like a 'men only' club shaking all the males' hands but not yours. Religion has a lot to answer for. Being rather crude, if a refugee was stuck in the English channel and a female rescuer put out their hand to haul in a male would that male refuse to touch her hand and rather drown.

@alexander0506 The OP should have apologised? For not realising what exactly?

I haven’t read the full thread, but I have read all of the OP’s posts. The man did not explain why he wouldn’t shake the OP’s hand beyond saying that he didn’t shake hands with women.

Posters are not saying that the man should be expected to touch people against his wishes, but that if you don’t want to shake hands with people of the opposite sex, then maybe you shouldn’t shake hands with anyone. At the very least this young man needs to come up with a more respectful way of dealing with this issue.

@Itwouldtakemuchmorethanthis

You have deliberately taken what I said out of all context.