AIBU - What would you have done?

[TheQueensCorgi]

Name changed. Meeting at work (large company, very big on rights for all) and at the end we shook hands with others. I was the only woman in the room and when I got to a man (not white), I put out my hand and he said ‘Sorry I don’t shake hands with women’, and walked off.

I kind of stood there not really knowing what to do next, a few of the men who had overheard still in the room said he never shakes hands for religious reasons.

What would you have done? Would you brush this off? I felt like a second class citizen and quite embarrassed. Should I just be accepting of the fact this was his view or do I have the right to be annoyed ?

@MissPollyHadADolly19 - then why is refusing a handshake deemed so terrible? I'd be horrified if someone tried to kiss me as a greeting, especially if they were a man.

Refusing a handshake is not terrible. Doing so in a rude, discriminatory way, as described by the op, is very poor practice.

Having read a few more of the op replies, he just sounds rude or maybe overly nervous, which caused a kind of rudeness.... Either way, he could have handled it better.

@MissPolly probably none (although that perhaps opens up a wider question of what constitutes a "religion") but my point is that we seem to accept that women can be validly discriminated against in this way perhaps purely because it is the "status quo" or just so happens to be the current issue in play by virtue of historical accident.

An analogy can be quite a useful way to interrogate whether the status quo is actually reasonable.

My sense is that discrimination against another protected characteristic on the basis of sanctity of religious belief would not be so tolerated, so asking "what is the difference nowadays?" or "why are women still the only ones expected to accept it?" is a valid question.

Refusing a handshake is not terrible. Doing so in a rude, discriminatory way, as described by the op, is very poor practice.

I agree with this. I wouldn't have a problem with someone apologising and saying that they couldn't shake my hand for religious reasons. That not what the man did though.

I see his manager is going to have a chat and ask him to find a better way of saying it. I think this is the right thing to do.

I live and work in a muslim-majority country and I have never had a man refuse to shake my hand. It sounds a bit extreme, like he was trying to make a point.

Islam is quite a pragmatic religion; it could be argued that causing offence by refusing to shake hands is a greater sin than the handshake itself.

A pp wrote if he or his brother were gay Would he not shake hands with other men for the sake of propriety and to demonstrate his faithfulness to his boyfriend/husband?

I think this is arse about tit, the rule is you touch people in your close family or those of the same sex. In the same way we have rules about changing clothes/nudity in front of close family or those of the same sex (eg you might be comfy changing in the same room as family or a ladies changing room if you are female. I think it’s more about levels of intimacy. I might just about kiss a friends husband on the cheek in greeting, I always kiss my children on the cheek, I only kiss my husband on the lips. I wouldn’t want to kiss random males at all, and don’t kiss my friends children though some I love dearly.

I'm surprised by this, not that he wouldn't shake your hand, but that he didn't use an equivalent respectful gesture. Where I've met muslin men before who have declined to shake my hand, they've put their right hand to the middle of their chest and bowed slightly towards me, a gesture to show respect for the person you're talking to but not shaking their hand. This was two different muslim men on two different occasions; Neither would have dreamed of just saying "I can't shake your hand" and walking off.

It seems that his behaviour for the whole of the meeting wasn't great, he didn't come across well and this plus the handshake will damage his working relationships and reputation. Someone, possibly his manager, needs to have a word with him, he is very young and needs to learn business norms.

That same person should tell him that he needs to treat everyone equally regardless of sex, which included his attitude as well as his behaviour. He doesn't have to sake hands with women if he doesn't ant to, but then he has to decline to shake any hands in a mixed sex environment, he also needs to be polite to everyone.

If I felt someone was being rude about it I would let them know I respect their faith but they might want to find a less rude way of dealing with the situation, especially if it is young man, just starting out in business.

When I was that age, working in a very male dominated industry there were a lot of scenarios I felt uncomfortable in. I probably dealt with them in a seemingly rude way. Now I know better.

He is absolutely allowed not to shake your hand if his faith dictates it. Just as you are allowed not to be kissed on the cheek if that bothers you.

If you want to be all bothered about his supposed attitude to women, that’s a different issue. Lots of people don’t shake hands for lots of reasons, no need to make a big deal about it.

moreover addressed ALL his interview responses to her (male) colleague even though it was clear my DD was the lead interviewer Having been in many work situations where I’m accompanied by an obviously junior male colleague either at meetings or interviews, I can tell you this is not uncommon. It’s not just Muslim men who do it either. In fact, it isn’t even just men who do it. It isn’t even just a work thing. If your DD is going to not employ everyone who does it, she won’t get very far.

If your DD is going to not employ everyone who does it, she won’t get very far.

Or she will get very far and build up a fantastic team and create a great environment to work in.

@AyBeeCee10 - "He way rude and unprofessional but he will get away with it due to his 'religious beliefs'."

Yes, exactly. This response says it all. I can't believe the things we still excuse in the name of religion.

My neighbours are Syrian muslims. They are lovely, kind and generous people, but very much religious. The men and boys of their family will only speak to my husband. They are polite, but when dh isn't around, they keep hellos or other items that need discussing as short as is possible to the point I am dismissed. They will only speak to him. I guess it's hard to come to terms with from a western female British Christian etc standpoint. In a business context though, in this country, I would say it's damn rude, and arrogant. Because I'm sure that were we in their country they would not appreciate us behaving similarly.

Itwouldtake
It doesn’t matter if the man was an immigrant/visitor...”when in Rome” and you know the rest of this well known saying.
And as for you stating that you’ve lived as an expat and wouldn’t dream of changing your values to match each setting...well you should, it is only respectful to the country that is hosting you.

Oh yes. Let's make excuses for the ' young obviously well meaning but slightly clumsy male' . After all he has only insulted a women. That is fine. Of course she needs to suck it up and get on with her life of lower worth.

OP what is wrong with you!? Why aren't you more smiling and accommodating . You are after all female so cannot possibly expect to have your concerns taken seriously or to be dealt with in a straightforward professional manner.

If you are of child bearing age, you must accept that many of your interactions with males will be in the context of your ' dangerous' sexual qualities and you must accept either unwanted sexual attention or being shunned and treated as if you are unclean in case the male in question cannot control himself in your presence

There is no doubt in my mind that he was insulting and likely deliberately so. He could have refused to shake hands with everyone but he did not want to risk upsetting or offending the other men present. He didn't mind doing that to the woman in the room.

His religious observance is irrelevant here. He could have found a way to make his religious practice less insulting as others have suggested with his words and boat language but he chose not to. That says a lot about his motivations

Body language obviously not boat language !!

Magenta 82

At last! Someone talking a bit of sense!

Miss Polly

Why would men feel “silly” if they offered their hand to you in a business setting? This is a most natural thing to do, surely?

My husband is Muslim, and his brother is this way. DH and other family members cringe every time he does it, especially as he is in a job that requires a lot of hand shaking. Yes even his own family thinks it is rude, and always embarrassing for the lady involved.

It does work both ways.

I've had muslim women refusing to shake hands with men.

I don't see the problem. Shaking hands is a cultural thing and it doesn't have to be mandatory.
It's not because he was repulsed by women or considered them as lesser. That's not the context.

It doesn’t matter if the man was an immigrant/visitor...”when in Rome” and you know the rest of this well known saying.

Would you kiss someone in the mouth because it was local custom?

Bowing or just words as a greeting should be standard.
Why should there be any touching? (also a great way to spread germs)

This doesn't mean you're a second class citizen. If it had been a woman who followed the same faith she would have refused to shake hands with men. Don't take it personally.

newmomof1

Where did I say that the man shouldn’t work and live in England? I pointed out that if he wanted to live and work in England (or anywhere else in the U.K.) he should abide by the culture and customs of the country he is living in, just as I would expect an expat of this country to do the same in a hosting country...it is just simple politeness.

And what has the way I voted in the referendum got to do with anything?