What IS going on with this man? Father of DD's friend....

[HennyPennyHorror]

DD's just turned 11 and her best friend...we will call Anne. Anne's parents split up 4 years ago and so I have dealings with both Anne's Mum and less so, her Dad.

Anne lives full time with Mum but Dad seems to want more access and often turns up as DD and Anne are walking home from school....he'll ask Anne if she wants to go out for tea with him...sometimes just him and other times with his newish girlfriend and him.

Anne almost always says no.

Anne would rather come here to ours and play for an hour or two before walking home to her Mums.

Whenever Anne stays over with us at weekends, her Dad will phone me and ask "I wondered if Anne would like to come for a picnic/lunch/to the climbing wall...whatever....he offers for my DD to go too.

Anne always says no. I have taken to handing my phone to Anne and letting her do the telling.

She has never once agreed to his suggestions.

Why does he try to "muscle in" on Anne and DD's plans and playdates? When DD and Anne have a friday night sleepover for example, they will usually have made little plans for the next day...just simple things "We're going to the library and then for a milkshake at the general store" (we live in Oz)

But he always tries to sort of tempt Anne away. It's her Dad...I get that...but why hasn't he got proper access arrangement in place with Anne's Mother?

Anne's Mother is not very communicative. All I know from Anne is that "Dad once broke our mailbox and my big sister didn't speak to him for a year"

He seems polite...but might be abusive? If so, I wish Anne's Mum would tell me so I can give him short shrift.

This is the sort of behaviour my ex & his family thinks is acceptable. Hanging around school gates, calling friends parents, giving the to be of I'm just a dad /grandparent wanting to see the kids. They forget to mention the DV, sralking, harrassment and other criminal damage or the various court orders which state no direct or indirect contact.......
As for alienation, for those who think it is up to the child to reject a parent, I suggest you read up on kids who are trauma bonded and so emotionally harmed that they will say/do anything against the other parent so that they are not subject to an abusers rage. Whilst there most certainly are cases where children have been turned against a parent, often by mothers, it's not always the case & a narcissist will use whatever comes to hand to inflict further damage on a former partner without any care for the mental wellbeing of the weaponised child, who is generally discarded further down the track.
This young girl seems to reject her dad's offers of time together, which so far he seems to take on board, however she shouldn't be in this position and neither should you. It's unfair and potentially dangerous for you & your family as per SpaceSavers pp.

So he behaves totally inappropriately? Riight

Can you not speak to Annes dad? Just say it makes you feel uncomfortable him contacting your home and you don't know what the arrangement is but can he sort it out with her mum x

Have you spoken to him? Have you asked him why he does this? I wouldn’t be surprised if Anne doesn’t say yes because her mother probably is negative about him, most likely for no good reason.

I'd talk to the Mum, if I could'nt get through on the phone, then I would go home with the daughter and then speak to her.
Personally I wouldn't want all this drama and I'd block the dad etc. If it continued that I was still being bothered by him, trying to get to his child, then I would say to my daughter just see Anne at school etc.

At the end of the day he could be a sex offender or anything and the Mum needs to know.

Since OP hasn't spoken to Anne's DM we don't know that the DF is being underhand. Perhaps he calls Anne with suggestions and invitations when she's at home too.
I don't think it's your place OP to try to manage Anne's communications with her DF. If her DM called would you be ignoring her and refusing to answer? Perhaps the best response would be to tell Anne's DM that Anne can't come to your's until you can have a proper chat with her DM. Then you can explain you're unhappy about managing Anne's contact with her DF.

Maybe dad has tryed to arrange stuff with daughter through mum but like you say she’s very hard to pin down & probably doesn’t answer the phone to him so goes through you. You said that Anne does go through him when “she wants a lift” or “wants something” that sounds like she uses him when it suits her & maybe dad is tried of only being there when it suits child or mum. Let’s face it we only bitch & moan about men/dads when they don’t bother & dad probably knows that Anne will say no but will be the wrong if he didn’t ask & this way Anne & mum can’t say he never tried.As much as it is annoying to you & not nice for Anne but I think it shows at least dad is interested in spending time with his daughter. Maybe text dad & say that you are now getting uncomfortable with the amount of times he is contacting Anne via you & from now can he please contact Anne’s mum.
We don’t know the history so for all we know mum could of told Anne she’s not allowed to go with dad but won’t admit that as she will be judged & slagged off or maybe dad won’t believe anyone unless he hears it from Anne himself
Let’s face it if a 11yr old has the choice between being with there friends or going out with a parent 9 times out of 10 the friend will always win.

Anne's refusals to do things with her Dad when she's with your DD may simply be that at 11, she prefers to hang out with her friends rather than her parents.

My DD(14) and DS (11) would definitely prefer this right now, although we all get along fine- but DH and I are middle-aged, uncool parents, not their friends! .

I agree that not answering the phone is the best strategy when he tries to ring you. You've already told her Mum that he approaches Anne after school and as she didn't seem overly concerned, I doubt there's a dangerous back story (violence, etc.).

I have a feeling that they don't have proper contact in place and the Dad wants to see his DD, but she isn't v. interested right now. In his shoes, I'd solve the problem by arranging proper contact...but that's not your problem, he should leave you alone.

You need to talk firstly with the school, both with the form teacher and the head, do not assume that either of them will find the time to tell the other. and tell them of your concerns and maybe try to chat with the police and social services too.

There may already be a court order banning him from any contact, due to his past history and he may be banned from contact near the school.

The head still needs to know what he is doing, so they can report it.

There may well be a social worker who needs to know what he is doing, as they could use that evidence in courts.

You have no idea why the Mother acts the way she is or why Anne refuses to be with him, but all your instincts, your husbands and the dog seem to point to all of you being very concerned for Anne's welfare.

I write here with some experience of both an ex causing custody issues and seeing how my Son reacted to not wanting to spend time any where near my ex.

It does not matter if the man does not have proper contact. He is behaving inappropriately. Turning up and walking onto OPs property, offering to take his DD and OPs DD in his car places. Op has had to tell her DD never to get into the car when he stops and does this. It is totally inappropriate. Someone decent does not respond to contact issues in this way.
But I know on MN there are always those who will defend any man.

I agree that his behaviour is inappropriate and annoying. I'm simply saying that the Mum's laid-back reaction to hearing about it suggests that he's not actually dangerous. Surely if he were abusive or there was a court order in place, she wouldn't have said "It's up to Anne" whether to see him?

Anyway, it needs to stop regardless.

No it does not mean that he is okay. It may be that there is a court order in place which says it is up to Anne. And that he has been abusive to the mum. I am not saying he has been, but that reaction tells you nothing.

You do really need to pin the mum down

Phone her. She can’t avoid it then if you are direct

‘Hope you don’t mind me asking but Anne’s dad often seems to phone or come to the house when she is here and has on occasion spoken to Anne and my DD when they are walking home and asked them to go to his house or a trip out with him. Can you just clarify for me please that you are happy for Anne to make whatever decision she wishes when this occurs including going with him and also saying no?
I’m simply asking so that I don’t end up facilitating something that you are unhappy with.’

But also yes stop answering his calls
But you do need a clear steer on this as he is approaching her directly when she is officially at your house or on her way.

If you get no joy still from the mum then I’d approach school to ask if they are aware what contact arrangements are if he turns up there so you can follow suit.

So you really think that a mother who'd experienced abuse would react that way when the OP told her about it?Not even let the OP know that he had a history of abuse (towards her)?

I don't believe that for a minute, A friend of mine whose children have court-ordered contact with her ex has let everyone know that he hit her and has a violent temper. She's constantly vigilant for any signs of abuse towards her children.

I feel like Anne’s mum is at fault here. If she doesn’t answer the phone to you, you can get she doesn’t answer it to him. He just wants to see his daughter and is trying to tempt her, yes, because she doesn’t seem to want to come. Because she’s 11 and would rather hang out with her mates.

Annes’s Mum said it’s up to her whether she sees him. That doesn’t sound like he was abusive.

I know there’s a chance - but I’d say it’s more likely that she’s just a cowardly dick and not facilitating her daughter having a relationship with her father. Me and my son’s dad split up. My son is 11. He’d rather hang with his mates; id rather never speak to my ex again. But I do, pretty much every day, and my son sees him at my organisation every other weekend, and he has a great time.

It doesn’t help you though. I’d talk to Anne’s mum and ask why she doesn’t support their relationship.

As others have said, it isn’t up to you to speculate. Safeguarding the child, not only from tangible harm, but also from the emotional burden of her fractured family should be of concern to the adults around her. When presented with a safeguarding issue, I always try to bat it on to a higher authority. In this case, if the mother is not helping, then you can seek out someone else with a duty of care for her. Likely to be the head or principal of the school.

Ringing up and saying that you wish to discuss a safeguarding matter concerning one of their pupils should do it...

first question is how does he know Anne is at your house , would guess that Annes mother told him as you said about her "She gives off a vibe of "Don't bother me....I don't want to know" but she is happy to palm her child off to you when her dad wants more access as you said when they need something off Annes dad she asks and gets it , i would have harsh words with Annes mother for her to explain what is going or tell her that Anne can not come round Annes mother is a CF who is throwing you under a bus

Her mum needs to stop being an Ostrich about this and be the Adult here. The
Daughter is showing more maturity ! She needs to deal with the Dad and put solid plans in place instead of leaving it to her daughter to decide what happens. She is dissolving herself of parental responsibility.

I have a lovely male friend who us desperate to spend more time with his daughter ive had him in tears over kack of access...but his ex has poisoned the poor girls mind and everytime her dad asks her if shed like to do something she always seems keen till she clears it with mum then its, no i dont think so...dont all judge men ffs. Maybe hes desperate to see his daughter??

@sissyjd then he needs to go through the proper channels like everyone else and gain official contact. Not follow his daughter when she's with her friend and harass a family he barely knows.

My blood has just run cold, sorry, but this man is an adult and should of course know he is overstepping the boundaries. And he obviously chooses to keep doing it. If it's an unfair arrangement between parents,then up to him to get legal or make some concrete arrangement with the mother. Otherwise, Anne should not be left to deal with this alone, she is a child and should not have this burden on her shoulders. Oh and, tell him to get the hell away from your own daughter and not encroach on the two of them again. My ex behaved like this, tempting our daughter and friends with treats and little trips,
There was no abuse in the physical sense but still abuse of power over his little girl, absolute creep but my own daughter never had to deal with him, I did. Mother needs to be told so she can take decisive action.

I think that Nessie's advice:

'Hi X, I'm not sure what the arrangements are with your dd and access, but I need to ask you to stop calling/texting when you dd is at mine. I really feel it more appropriate if you deal directly with her mum - it puts me in an awkward position and the girls just like to get on playing. I'm sure you understand, thanks"

is the best way to go, as why should you have to screen your calls and feel uncomfortable waiting for the phone to stop ringing. If after sending him the above message, he continues to call, then tell Anne's Mum that she needs to deal with the situation, and tell him to stop calling Anne while she's at yours as it's a really rude way to behave. Failing that, you'll need to block him, but you really shouldn't continue to put up with this.

Also: if you tell him to stop calling you but he persists, or becomes aggressive in any way, report him to the police for harassment. He sounds like someone who needs a good official smackdown.

Personally I wouldn’t get involved or allow ‘Anne’ to speak with him or speak to him myself. How did he get your phone number? If Anne’s mum has given her permission to be at your place to spend time with your daughter Then obviously you have a duty of care whilst Anne is in your company and arrangements have been made to visit you and your daughter or come over to your house and have been given trust by her mother. I’m sure there’s a good reason why he isn’t seeing her and strange that he asks u or Anne when she’s at your house rather than asking Anne’s mother. Tread careful if I was Anne’s mum and found out she had been speaking to the father or you whilst supposed to be at her friends place I would be livid and wouldn’t allow her to come over anymore. I don’t think it’s appropriate at all that your even conversing with him especially without telling her mother seems quite sly and I think you know your doing something wrong or something is up here otherwise you would have at least informed her mother.

@AmICrazyorWhat2 None of us know what has happened here. But some women who have been abused are so beaten down that they no longer have any fight in them. Good that your friend has, but that is by no means always the case.