What IS going on with this man? Father of DD's friend....

[HennyPennyHorror]

DD's just turned 11 and her best friend...we will call Anne. Anne's parents split up 4 years ago and so I have dealings with both Anne's Mum and less so, her Dad.

Anne lives full time with Mum but Dad seems to want more access and often turns up as DD and Anne are walking home from school....he'll ask Anne if she wants to go out for tea with him...sometimes just him and other times with his newish girlfriend and him.

Anne almost always says no.

Anne would rather come here to ours and play for an hour or two before walking home to her Mums.

Whenever Anne stays over with us at weekends, her Dad will phone me and ask "I wondered if Anne would like to come for a picnic/lunch/to the climbing wall...whatever....he offers for my DD to go too.

Anne always says no. I have taken to handing my phone to Anne and letting her do the telling.

She has never once agreed to his suggestions.

Why does he try to "muscle in" on Anne and DD's plans and playdates? When DD and Anne have a friday night sleepover for example, they will usually have made little plans for the next day...just simple things "We're going to the library and then for a milkshake at the general store" (we live in Oz)

But he always tries to sort of tempt Anne away. It's her Dad...I get that...but why hasn't he got proper access arrangement in place with Anne's Mother?

Anne's Mother is not very communicative. All I know from Anne is that "Dad once broke our mailbox and my big sister didn't speak to him for a year"

He seems polite...but might be abusive? If so, I wish Anne's Mum would tell me so I can give him short shrift.

If Anne's mother has apparently washed her hands of it and said it's up to Anne, I think you need to sit down with her and ask gently how she would like you to handle it. I don't think she'd be any more uncomfortable than she is having to turn him down all the time whilst you're there.

North Yes but why isn't she bothered about seeing him?? My DD would be desperate to see Daddy if we didn't live together. She'd see him daily if possible. I can't imagine her saying "Nah..." if he wanted to take her and a pal out to dinner or something.

Someone mentioned the fact that Anne has the power to say no being wrong...but I disagree. 11 year olds know their own minds and can choose what they're comfortable with.

If he's alienated her that's his problem.

Soup that would be the ideal thing I agree. She's so closed though.

Hard to explain but she keeps conversations to a bare minimum. Doesn't hang around if she ever picks Anne up from ours. I invite her in...but it's all very shallow and she never sits for a coffee....just hovers by the door. I can't think how to begin...

1. He was given your number without your permission which he uses to harass you and interrupt Ann’s enjoyment of her play date.
2. Ann’s time with her friend is time away from whatever has happened between her parents and he’s making it follow her to your house.
3. He’s not picking up on your cues
4. In Australian society, this is NOT normal behaviour. He may be desperate to see his daughter, but he is not going about this the right way. This is stalker-like behaviour.

To be honest, if you’re getting nothing from Ann or her mother, I’d go to the school and let them know what’s going on. At best, it’s really, really weird.

Justi I bloody IS weird isn't it? DH never liked the guy on sight and neither did the dog...and DH likes everyone. He's literally that man who sees the good in all people...but he was all with this man.

I just saw him as someone who is a bit different because he lives on a fairly isolated property. And you know here when someone calls a property isolated...it really IS isolated.

Please don't just hand Anne the phone. This is the sort of arrangement that should be handle by the adults. 11 is far too young to handle this sort of thing.
It sounds very clandestine to me. He should be making contact arrangements with Anne's mother, who presumably has the legal care and control of Anne.
You don't have parental authority to vary what contact arrangements are in place, if any. You are best advised to tell him that he should be discussing it with her mother and hang up. He shouldn't be hassling Anne when playing at her friend's. He shouldn’t have your phone number, anyway - who gave him that?
If my child had gone to play at her friend's and I then found out that friend's mother had let her go off with her father, I would be furious and not permit her to go to that house again.
Accosting you all on the way home from school isn't on, and it feels clandestine and sneaky. It makes me wonder if there are sound reasons why there isn't much or any official contact. I would definitely be saying something along these lines to him and telling him to desist.
It's frankly a bit sinister that he wants your DD to come, too.
I'd write to Anne's mother and tell her about his attempts to entice Anne, and ask her to deal with it, by legal means, if necessary. Also make clear that you will be telling him to cease accosting you.
All in all, it sounds as though Anne needs to be shielded from all this and not put on the spot.

I think both of Anne's parents are very lacking, and unwittingly you could potentially be put in a bad situation.

E.g. what happens if Anne agrees to see her father and something happens - he takes her off somewhere and doesn't return her or something worse happens?

You don't know the man and you don't know his potential (and Anne probably doesn't know either).

It really doesn't matter how long this has been going on for - look Anne's mother in the eye and ask her if you have her authority to let Anne see him or not.

Don't accept vague wishy washy answers - it must be black and white. You have Every right to know as you obviously look after the child a lot, and this current situation really is not fair on you in any way shape or form.

Gigg If you read the full thread then you will see I've decided not to pick up at all when he rings in future.

North Yes but why isn't she bothered about seeing him?? My DD would be desperate to see Daddy if we didn't live together

I can imagine that if he was unfaithful then he had caused lots of pain to Anne's mum and to Anne as well. If he left them for someone else then it would surely hurt. Anne doesn't sound gullible at all. It doesn't look like he could buy her.

He probably left them but wants to still keep his cake.

How well do you actually know Anne's Mum let alone her Dad? This has the potential to get messy if you are effectively taking on parental responsibility without authority. I would be reluctant to have Anne to visit with my DD at all lest she or I got caught in the cross fire. You seem to want to put yourself out a lot for Anne which is lovely but be careful about the potential impact on your own family. Also if you do not know the full circumstances you may well have the wrong end of the stick and not be doing Anne any favours.

I would tell the dad that he has to contact Anne's mum regarding any plans with Anne. You don't want to be involved in it.

how have you read the thread? I explain about Anne's Mum there.

I don't feel I am putting myself out for anne at all. She and DD love one another and he's not exactly made complaints to me.

You say that he never rings for Anne when she not there but how do you know that Anne’s mother has told him she is at yours? Maybe he rings and Anne’s mother says she is not home for him to speak too. He might deduce from that info that Anne is at your house. You are assuming the mother tells him but maybe he calls anywhere he thinks she could be.

I think you are definitely taking the right course of action in ignoring his calls. Anne has made it clear numerous times that she does not want to spend time with him. If he feels that is unjustified and is “desperate to see his daughter” as pp have said then he needs to take that up with Anne’s mother and the courts. He should not be stalking her at your place, harassing her on her way home from school or walking into her friend’s home uninvited.

Too many red flags in this situation.

I think that you need to talk to SOMEONE in this situation, and if the mum won't talk and has devolved all responsibility for the situation onto Anne, then Anne was the most logical option, as per my first suggestion - but I can see why that would make you uncomfortable.

Which leaves you with the options of telling the mum that you are uncomfortable with the father phoning you and that you won't be responding to any further calls from him; or telling the father himself.

I totally understand that this whole thing is making you uncomfortable - it would me! - but you need someone to talk to to resolve it. Maybe write the mum a note if she won't talk?

Sounds like the father is desperate to see his daughter.

My guess would be the mother is withholding contact.

Obviously this has nothing to do with you. The mother needs to be dealing with this situation.

Let’s hope he goes through the courts to get access.

Sounds creepy, like he's following his own DD or something?! How does he always know where she is?

You're right to ignore his calls op. It's odd that she doesn't want to see him so maybe he is an abusive arse. If she really wanted to see him but was being guilted by her mum not to then surely she'd appear sad when saying no. She'd feel torn between the two.
I'm guessing there's good reason she doesn't want to.

Doesn't hang around if she ever picks Anne up from ours.

I meant talk to Anne (although as i typed it i realised the use of "she" made it all ambiguous!)

I've spoken to DD about the Dad a bit and she's quite negative about him (due to what Anne tells her).

However I don';t think he's stalking her. I think that he is in phone contact with Anne's older sisters. They're old enough to have a mobile each. Anne doesn't...which is usual at 11 in our neck of the woods.

@HennyPennyHorror - I am an Aussie and I have lived in rural communities (Alpine Vic). His behaviour screams obsessive/stalkery. Mums screams victim of abuse who is trying to get her shit together. The non-verbals you are describing from mother do describe fear to me. She does not do “normal” female interaction, your husband’s radar is probably spot-on and I suspect yours is too. He is letting her know that he knows where she is, ie - controlling his kid like a bloody sheep dog. He is rounding her up via contact with you EVERY single time she’s there? NOT NORMAL. Massive control issues. I would be surprised if he didn’t beat mum up, and probably beating older kid up was last straw. He is NOT SAFE. Believe your gut instinct. Believe your husband. If you don’t, believe your dog!!!

I think it’s fine for an 11-year-old to decide whether to not to see her dad. In the UK we talk about being “Fraser competent” - it’s the age when a child is deemed to be able to know their own mind and understand the implications of their actions.

So it sounds like Anne is perfectly able to make her mind up about this in a general sense, but it’s a different matter her having to deal with her Dad constantly harassing her in person. This really should be dealt with by the parents.

Haven't RTWFT sorry but I would wonder why the Dad isn't approaching Anne at the school gate and worry that the school have been told "Under no circumstances let Anne's Dad collect," (common enough situation) which is why he is trying to intercept her on the way home.

So definitely let the Mum know asap.

This seems inappropriate of him on at least 2 fronts. He's asking Anne to go somewhere with him, without her mother knowing or having the opportunity to say no. Assuming she has primary custody, then she has this power and responsibility as Anne is still very young. And he's asking Anne to bring your DD with her, without agreeing with this with you.

You definitely need to speak to Anne's DM to agree on what she wants you to do about the first. But the second would make me say no every time.

Poor child. The mother should have a better handle over this situation, and it's not up to you to have to deal with this!

worry that the school have been told "Under no circumstances let Anne's Dad collect,"

I’m not sure how it is in Australia but here we would have to have a court order in place to refuse to allow a parent with PR to pick his child up from school. Although if we didn’t have his contact details and he’d made no effort at all to contact school, we would phone the resident parent first and ask them if they were ok with it.