Am I over reacting? Would this be a deal breaker for you?

[Ironhelpsusplay]

I think men that pay women for sex are disgusting and I've always said it would be a deal breaker for me if someone I was dating had ever done so in the past.

I would never flat out ask someone I was dating this just in case I got the answer I didn't want.

New dp and I have been dating 4 months, we were chatting this morning. He is very honest and open and he just casually mentioned about 5 years back on a lads holiday in Amsterdam they were egging him on to sleep with a prostitute, he didn't want to sleep with her but let her give him a handjob, his friends paid.

Instantly felt a bit sick and was a bit cold towards him, he said he was young and regrets. He went home in the end, was a bit awkward.

If he slept with a prostitute with his own money and without the peer pressure from his mates, if he made that decision to do it it would be a flat out I don't want to date you any more, but I guess this is a bit different isn't it? Is it?

Tell me if I'm over reacting! Need some opinions.

Would this be a deal breaker for you?

For the avoidance of doubt- this is what the OP said.
“I think men that pay women for sex are disgusting”

Why would you choose to twist that if you have no agenda?

For me it would depend how old he was at the time...18 or so, I can understand that people cave to peer pressure and make mistakes that they genuinely regret at that age.

Your front cortex that contains most of your ability to think through consequences and impulse control doesn't stop forming until you're about 21-22.

If 5 years ago he was 30 then it would be a deal breaker.

We have to move away from the idea that prostitutes are always fragile, vulnerable people.

Beyond this post I'm not going to get into the argument any further as that's not the point of the thread.

Just to say...I very nearly became a high class escort when I was younger and, at the time, would have had a huge strop if anyone had suggested it was because I was vulnerable. I would have pointed out that it was my choice, and not feminist to disrespect that choice and how I was a law student and not at all vulnerable. I would come across as confident, intelligent and as entirely comfortable with my decision.

Now, years later I realise that I actually was. I had low self esteem due to an abusive father and (completely unrecognised and undiagnosed) bipolar disorder.

Now with medication and plenty of therapy I have a normal sense of self esteem and would never, ever consider selling sex. Just because someone doesn't present as vulnerable or accept that they're vulnerable doesn't mean they aren't.

I honestly believe that all women who sell sex are vulnerable...even those that back legalisation say "Well....I wouldn't do it myself but...". Try and imagine what it is that leads women who sell sex to make a different decision...it's nothing good.

Not a deal breaker for me, especially if that behavior seems totally at odds with his behavior now, and also if his opinions on sex work tie with yours now.

I don't believe all men are intrinsically misogynists who are secretly keen to use prostitutes. If his behavior and personality now seems decent then maybe keep talking and see where things go.

Most of us have done fucking stupid things in our life. Do we want to be judged all our lives by stupid mistakes that we have learned from and regret?

OK, I agree that they did not call the workers themselves disgusting, having checked back. I apologise. I suppose I was just picking up on the general flavour of some PPs comments which indicate that to them, the whole area of sex work is something disgusting and shameful. Of course that is a very mainstream and completely valid view and feeling. I just wanted to point out that there are alternative views, including the idea that sex work is not in fact one thing/job, but a large variety of different types of work done by a large variety of diferent people under a large variety of different circumstances. Some of which are indeed exploitative/abusive/disgusting etc. And some of which are, in my opinion, not.

exploitation of women on industrial scale

Yes, I read that article at the time it was published in fact. I am not saying those women (and men) are not being exploited, not at all.

I think YABU. The past is the past. His thoughts, opinions and actions now are what matters.

It wouldn’t be a deal breaker for me, mo

...sex work is not in fact one thing/job, but a large variety of different types of work done by a large variety of diferent people under a large variety of different circumstances. Some of which are indeed exploitative/abusive/disgusting etc. And some of which are, in my opinion, not

So how does a punter ascertain for definite which camp the prostitute they are about to engage with falls into? If they can't (which they can't), is it OK for a proportion of sex workers to be raped because some of them are not - in your opinion - being exploited and so therefore using prostitutes is fine? Collateral damage, if you will? I would hope the answer to that is "no", in which case it's really not relevant that you think some prostitutes are not exploited, because plenty definitely are and there's no way to tell the difference. Every time someone has sex with a prostitute, they are potentially committing rape. They cannot possibly guarantee otherwise.

A hell of a lot of men pay for sex, it's very very common.

My friend prostitutes herself and says that most of her clients are cheating on their partners. They don't think twice about it.

I think women in heterosexual relationships are often deluding themselves about the moral quality of their partners.

It’s totally personal - not a deal breaker for me. but I’m not you.

I just don't think of it (sex work) as one thing. It's a whole variety of activities. Like, let's say, eating food or wearing clothes. You can eat a food or wear a fabric that involved the use of slave labour or severe exploitation. You very probably have, and you may well not know whether you have or not. (Just like you may not know all the life circumstances of the sex worker when you chose to use his/her services). You don't condemn or wish to prohibit food or clothes. Instead you advocate for more oversight and regulation in the industry, and more awareness of which ones do harm to people, and try to use only the ones that do not.

It’s classic anti feminist misdirection. Redefining distaste towards punters as distaste towards prostituted women. Deflecting away from the core issues towards men, and towards other sorts of work- I read an article recently suggesting that a doctor in a sexual health clinic was a sort of sex worker. It’s all anti woman, pro man bollocks.

@Carefulfox it is possible to buy ethically produced clothing and goods, and to verify that these are ethically produced. How are punters verifying that the sex workers they are paying are working under ethical conditions? We can pontificate over how to fix the sex industry and make it safe for sex workers, but that's not the current reality and we are discussing punters who have/do engage sex workers in the existing sex industry as opposed to some utopian version of it.

It was 5 years ago ffs. He was younger and clearly they were all encouraging each other to do stuff. The drank too much, maybe did some weed and got a hand job.
I personally wouldn't care. I did some questionable things when I was young so what. I've grown a lot since.
If he is a good man let it go.

Exactly *whatsinaname", it IS possible to buy ethical food and clothing. My take is that it is also possible to buy ethical sexual services. But in both cases the majority of people buying the product/service don't know or care about the details of the ethical dimension of the transaction...which is the problem.

@Carefulfox you are dealing entirely in ifs, buts and maybes. Currently, there is no way to buy sex ethically. I personally don't think there ever can be. But that's a totally different discussion for another day. In the real world - the world that this discussion is taking place in - punters are definitely not buying sex ethically because it's not possible. The discussion here is whether it's a deal breaker within a relationship to discover that your partner has been one such punter.

It disturbs me that so many posters are answering along the lines of "it was 5 years ago" / "we've all done stupid things" / or my personal favourite "as long as he's been tested for STIs" This man paid to violate a potentially extremely vulnerable woman's body. I think actually it's often the people who defend prostitution that are the ones who hate sex workers, contrary to their accusations in the other direction. It seems that lots of people don't see it as a violation because they don't place any value on female sex workers. It isn't a moral issue for them in the same way as it would be if the vulnerable woman in question weren't a prostitute. If the OP here was "my DP had a sexual encounter with a woman 5 years ago that may not have been consensual, and he isn't sure if she was forced into it by her abusive partner or not" I very much doubt that anyone would be saying "hey, we all make mistakes!". Apart from the exchange of money, there may well be no difference between the two things.

I don't wish to divert this thread from the subject of the op and her boyfriend but perhaps I shouldn't have said what I said about a lot of escorts being independent women, etc. It obviously annoyed a couple of people and one wanted evidence. All I can say is, when I was young and living in another town for a while in a studio, I was befriended by two young women, late twenties, who lived next door and worked as escorts. As they got to know me, they told me about it. I also met a couple of their friends, younger women (22/23ish), who did the same.

They all seemed perfectly well and happy and they were very nice. I never asked any personal questions but once they knew me and trusted me, they were quite forthcoming. It was an eye opener for me and very interesting. They certainly made a lot of money., the house was owned by one of them. This was in the UK by the way.

Of course there must be a down side and they probably didn't tell me the whole truth, why should they, but they were not drug users, nor did they work for a pimp. When I was back in London one of them was getting married and invited me but I couldn't go.

Moving on, I am interested to know what the op has decided after her boyfriend's shock admission. I think he may well regret having told her.

This man paid to violate a potentially extremely vulnerable woman's body.

Well, no. His friends paid and she gave him a hand job - I wouldn’t call that violating a woman’s body.

Well, no. His friends paid and she gave him a hand job - I wouldn’t call that violating a woman’s body

Whether he paid or his friends paid on his behalf is completely irrelevant. Personally I find it doubtful that his conscience prevented him from having penetrative sex but allowed him to indulge in a handjob, so I am inclined to think he's lying about that. Either way, yes I do consider it to be violation if a woman is coerced into giving a man a handjob. Whether that's because she is at risk of violence, has a habit to feed, is poverty stricken etc. There are a million reasons web become embroiled in prostitution and not many of them involve the Secret Diary of a Call Girl version that so many would like to believe.

Yes this would be a deal breaker for me.

A man of 23 is perfectly capable of telling his 'mates' to piss off!

The past is the past, I've done many things I'm ashamed of and I wouldn't like to be judged by, BUT none of them involved paying for the use of another person's body for my own sexual gratification.

@WhatsInAName19 - did you read my post on red light district research?

Also:

behindtheredlightdistrict.blogspot.com/

That's the blog of a Romanian woman who has been working as a window prostitute in Amsterdam for seven years. She writes (among other many interesting things):

"There's however one thing I can say for sure. Almost all the women in the Red Light District choose to become a prostitute, rather than being forced against their will."

You may dismiss this, as well as all the studies I cited above, but on what grounds?

(Not talking about the UK situation here. The situation in Amsterdam will of course be different).

I am not necessarily disagreeing with your moral point - can sex be bought ethically - because that is a different discussion. I just don't think disempowering a massive group of women is helpful here.