I can't do laundry when you're in your garden

[Fairylighting]

Ok, so I really don't think IABU, but was chatting to a friend about this fiasco last night and thought it would be worth putting it to the MN jury! I'll try not to drip feed, but that means this might be rather long!

I live in the first floor flat of a Victorian terrace conversion in London. It's a share of freehold with the ground floor flat and we technically each own half of the garden; my the back half from my fire escape stairs to the back fence and them the front half, from their French doors to the bottom of my steps. The whole freehold and both properties were previously owned by the same person, who rented each flat out and the garden has never been physically split by a fence or hedge etc. When I moved in (at the about same time as my downstairs neighbours), we had a brief discussion whereby we decided to share the garden since it's very small and that seemed like the most sensible and beneficial way to enjoy it.

Since then, we've had a few (4x over 20 months) minor issues where one of them (let's call her Penelope) has sent a message to our shared WhatsApp group complaining about noise, most of which wasn't actually coming from my flat. For example, once when I was away for a weekend and another time when I was asleep in bed. Then, one morning after they had been disturbed by noise from my flat, after I'd had to make a phonecall late at night I got a WhatsApp message from Penelope requesting that I don't have the TV or radio on in my bedroom after 10.30pm Sunday-Thursday... in some ways that one was easy since I don't have a TV or radio in my bedroom.

After that, we arranged to meet up for a cuppa to discuss their issues and set a date to do so a couple of weeks later. A few days before that date I was in the garden with my mum, having a cup of tea, in the afternoon. Penelope came outside and explained that they were having guests over for lunch and felt exposed because we were in the garden, and requested that we went outside. I said that I didn't think that was a reasonable request and she went inside crying.

We then met for the planned chat and Penelope and her partner (he can be Samuel for the purposes of this thread) explained that the noise wasn't really an issue and that it hadn't happened very often, also that Penelope is a light sleeper and is probably more bothered about it because of that, so we dropped that issue. Penelope then started talking about the garden and how exposed they feel in their home, when I'm in the shared garden before Samuel suggested she might want to apologise for the events of the preceding weekend. She did so, and I explained how rude I had felt that was before she continued to explain how bothered they were by the whole issue. I expressed some sympathy but also said that I like using the garden and that it's one of the reasons I bought the flat. We agreed to share schedules so they and I could plan any events involving guests for times when the other party is away if possible. We did that over the course of the following week.

About a week later I got a message saying it was Penelope's birthday and asking whether I could therefore not use the garden, so they could relax in their home. The following day I got a message with some ideas for changing the garden in a way that would make it more open with fewer changes of level and planting. I replied to say that I was happy to chat it through but that it sounded like a lot of work and might also further reduce their privacy then the conversation went quiet.

Another week later I sent a message saying that I was considering buying some solar powered fairy lights for the garden and I got a really tetchy reply from Penelope, who was upset that they'd be shining light into their property all night long. I explained that we could just turn them on and off as we wanted to use them. This prompted another message asking me not to use the garden on the Saturday of that weekend, followed by a long message explaining how upset they are by my use of the garden and how it prevents them from doing laundry and cooking. Penelope said this has all triggered her depression and anxiety and that they're worried the lights will look tacky and encourage me to use the garden in the evenings.

I replied on WhatsApp saying I wanted to consider a proper response and drafted a long email over a few days, setting out the legal position and the fact that I want to use the garden (or at least my part of it) freely. I proposed a way forwards that included me and Samuel communicating until Penelope feels better, neither party making any changes to the garden in the short term, informing eachother of any abnormal use of the garden in advance, and that our default position would need to be a return to the legal split of the garden.

Anyway, that was two weeks ago and I haven't heard a peep since... What's happened?!

Get a fence. cancel the cheque 6ft and sturdy.
She might get upset, but you have tried nice and it's not worked.
Before you know it she will be laying down the law about when you can have visitors or watch your tv....

@RobinHumphries build a wall - definitely the best idea so far.

Or failing that, has anybody suggested cancelling the cheque erecting a fence yet?

Seriously OP, you need a clear boundary in the garden. Fence it up - it will be better for all in both the short and long term. P won't have privacy issues any longer as the fence will sort that, you can use your garden without somebody trying to dictate the day / hour / minute you use it. And also, as somebody else mentioned, if the shared arrangement continued long term it could cause issues with the boundary when trying to sell because they could sell up saying they have use of the full garden and next thing you have nightmare owners moving in who could make having this arrangement a massive regret for you.

I also love the idea of penguin bollards. I have always thought that penguin bollards should be the first port of call in any of these type of situations

You need to separate the garden, either by a fence or a row of pots with maybe bamboo, something tall - just something that makes the divide more obvious.

However, even then - I don't think she will be happy. She clearly thinks as the garden as their own and simply doesn't want you to use it at all. Obviously, she is having a rough time with it and her anxiety is probably making her obsess over it more than normal.

To be fair, I wouldn't like to share a garden or have someone sitting outside my patio doors but then, I wouldn't buy a property with a shared garden. She should have considered this before buying and if she cannot accept it then they need to sell up and move.

YANBU.

I would hazard as guess that poor Samuel has had a firm word with Penelope and told her not to communicate with you about the garden anymore. I do feel sorry for Penelope too, she’s obviously having some problems just now, but her MH issues are not your problem.

She probably thought that if you shared the garden they'd use all of it, and you'd stay at the far end.

You can't win when dealing with people like her. She'll turn on the waterworks until she gets what she wants, which is everything.

A couple of people are saying that as Penelope is not happy with the OP being able to see into her flat etc, Penelope should put up a fence. But that isn't the issue. Penelope has come up with various excuses because she wants to use the part of the garden which belongs to the OP and despite the OP being reasonable about this Penelope is trying to dictate when OP uses her own garden and in fact wants to commandeer it for herself by limiting the OP's use.
Eg. she said she didn#t want the fairy lights shining into her flat (ok, fair enough) but then went on to say it would encourage the OP to use the garden in the evening. Well, she is perfectly entitled to use it in the evening, every evening, if she so wishes, because it belongs to OP and not to Penelope.

That's why the only solution is a fence. And if OP wants to sell the flat or if Penelope sells, it avoids problems with future neighbours.

I wouldn’t use pots - they’ll move and not be tall enough. Nor a hedge - too slow growing and then arguments about trimming etc.
If you don’t want a solid panel for light reasons how about this type of thing ? A few fast growing climbers (your side!) and a lot of privacy.

Have seen this happen before. I'm prepared to bet that when buying they assumed (probably were encouraged to assume by seller & estate agent) that because it's slightly more faff coming down from upstairs to access a shared garden, they would largely have it to themselves. I expect they didn't think about what it's like being in the ground floor flat with neighbours using the shared garden.

This is of course not your problem! Hold your ground but I strongly advise splitting it properly, if you can fence off the rear for privacy do so.

I don't think I'd bother with a fence. I'd just keep using the garden until Penelope moves out.

If it’s not bothering you, advise Samuel to build the fence/trellis/hedge. It’s his wife’s health, after all.

A couple of nice clematis.... just saying...

justilou

To be fair I'd hate that too as whenever you use the garden you're right outside their flat but then knowing the garden was shared I'd never have taken the flat on rented or purchased

Nor can I understand why so many people are telling the OP to put a fence up. Surely it is up to the people who are bothered by the original arrangement to put a fence up if that is what they want. Why should the OP be burdened with the expense / work to get it done?

Because of the significant benefits to her.

I do understand the argument of you're the one with the issue, you do something to fix it, since I'm fine as I am. However, that effectively relies on things staying as they are and OP feeling comfortable enough to enjoy the garden following the messages. Neither of these things are a given.

Even then, shared gardens and use of land different to what's on the deeds are both potentially absolute minefields. The last thing OP needs is that if she wants to sell in a few years, there's a neighbour who might think they have some kind of legal entitlement to use of the whole garden and/or a dispute she has to declare. Especially when she has the better garden anyway. In OPs shoes I'd have fenced the garden long before this happened, and there are a lot of people who think the same.

Remember when if you come to sell the sellers questionnaire will ask about any disputes - and penalties for non-disclosure- best to nip this is the bud as best you can now - BTfence - except be careful there isn’t some condition if you are leasehold about that !

@justilou1

And @TheCraicDealer

Re the laundry issue OP, does Penelope hang her washing out in your part of the garden? I bet she does as it is furthest from her flat hence not wanting you to use the garden. Do you hang your washing out there? If not, why not. Fresh air drying is lovely in the summer leaving aside being darked on and spider willies. How does Penelope cope if you do, how will she cope if you decide to?

I have sympathy with Penelope. People outside your windows can be very intrusive and feel like an invasion into your own home. She should n't have moved into that flat. That said, it seems to me that the only option is to divide the garden back up. It doesn't have tocost a fortune. A roll of bamboo screening and a few plants would make all the difference in the world.

I'm prepared to bet that when buying they assumed (probably were encouraged to assume by seller & estate agent) that because it's slightly more faff coming down from upstairs to access a shared garden, they would largely have it to themselves

I agree. I think they assume that the whole garden is theirs because they’re on the ground floor.

And you know- I don’t think Samuel is blameless in this.

I don’t think this kind of dispute needs to be declared when selling. Only if the disputes escalates to written contact or complaints to the council. You don’t have to declare every small thing.

I also do sympathize with Penelope, but the onus is on her to resolve this, not the OP.

Totally not the point of the thread but @YoThePussy wtf do spider willies have to do with drying laundry?!

blackcatsleeping agreed - at the current level I too wouldn’t disclose it (in middle of sale so alive to this at mo). I would fondure want to deal with it pronto so it didn’t escalate into something which would have to be disclosed. Think op has been brilliant so far dealing with mh of neighbour.

I think a row of garden gnomes would define the boundary nicely. Perhaps interspersed with some old fashioned street lights and a gas heater for the cooler evenings. Set up a table and chairs at the back immediately.

You also need to send a clear letter to explain that each of their noise complaints was not you (as per your OP explanations) and that her unwarranted complaints are interfering with your peace and enjoyment, so she must stop sending nuisance texts.

I like those trellis type things Heron