To think DD should be allowed to go on DofE expedition?

[Passthedamncoffee]

DD is currently in year 10 and is doing her DofE silver award. She has been having some issues with anxiety and depression, and recently had to go to hospital because of self harm.

Yesterday the school said that she’d be fine to participate in the expedition, however today they have said they would strongly recommend she doesn’t participate. This has been rather upsetting to my DD as she has been looking forward to the expedition (next week) and has been working hard to ensure she could complete the award.

FWIW, all medication etc wouldn’t be on her (instead with the leaders), DD had a practice expedition in March, and while she did struggle a bit overall she had a good time, and wants to go again. AIBU to think DD should be allowed to go on the expedition?

user87382294757
Have a bit of empathy.

Bronze used to be minimum age 14 (y10 upwards) and now it's y9 upwards (the school year you turn 14). There's a big maturity gap between y9/10.

Then add in that for some kids this is the most off grid they've been and the most countryside walking they've ever done. For the physically weaker kids it can be exhausting and for others they find it mentally tiring. Even adults get snappy or moody or teary if they're hungry or cold or feeling a bit fed up.

It's hardly a sign of 'kids these days'. They're human. Some will sail through and others might have some smaller bumps along the way.

Lol user87382294757 was your father one of the Four Yorkshiremen? You have the talk off pat

I wonder about kids today if they are in tears over a walk

Surely it's the kids who find it the toughest who are benefiting the most? Tutting on the Internet does nothing to help, the DofE award scheme does.

It isn't just a question of whether the group can cope with her if she has an 'emergency, can the others rely on her if someone else needs help?

I wonder about kids today if they are in tears over a walk

Not all hike - DS did caneoing. On the practice expedition it was freezing, it poured the entire time, they were cold, fed up and there was a lot of bickering between the group members. It's not the pleasant little stroll in the summer sunshine which some people are making it out to be.

What lolasmiles said, and DonkeyHonkey

I know lots of youngsters who hated every minute of their expeditions. The whole point is it puts them out of their comfort zone. A few thrive on that, but most of use would struggle.

us, not use.

When my DD did her Gold practice expedition it had to be abandoned. The weather conditions suddenly deteriorated, and resulted in a couple of injuries.

As a local DofE leader had died on expedition a short time before, in similar conditions, the school staff took the decision that the risks outweighed the advantages of carrying on.

When DD got back, she was so stressed after witnessing friends hurt in conditions where they couldn't immediately contact help (not to mention the physical strain of carrying kit in conditions that made any walking, let alone with a massive rucksack, difficult) that she developed a nervous tic. She's a fit, healthy, resilient kid, but it had quite a negative effect on her.

CatherineVelindre
Gold is a whole other beast. I like walking/hiking gold style routes and expeditions (probably more technical scrambles and exposure than they'd do on gold though) but as an adult who loves the outdoors I've had my own share of bad moods and exhaustion on mountains/ridges to empathise with kids who are just stepping up to thay level.

I only lead up to silver. I'd like to lead up to gold but whilst I feel my skills are good enough to keep myself safe, I don't think I'd confidently have the skills to work out what a group of cold, injured or distressed teens in the real middle of nowhere were communicating in an emergency.

I think people sometimes think DofE is an easy stroll in some fields. Bronze is for already competent walkers (because the height restrictions and rules about proximity to roads make it a bit boring terrain wise) but above that it's much more demanding.

I’ll admit to having underestimated DoE before reading this thread.

admit to having underestimated DoE before reading this thread.

Hmm well some of my kids have done all levels of d of e and i don't think found it as challenging as all that!
You have to remember that many kids are very sedentary and very infantilised these days!

OP, do you honestly believe that it is a good thing for your daughter right now to be on an isolated, physically and mentally challenging trip without adult supervision, with the first line of support being her peers?

There is no way I would send my child in that situation, no way would I take her as a teacher who does DofE, and no way I would want my child as first line of support to someone experiencing severe MH issues. I cannot see that her going is fair to anyone here.

DofE does push you to your limits. I did Up to And including Gold.
I was fine physically. The hardest part was the weakest members of the group.
You're trying to motivate yourself and push through your barriers. If you've got someone whining and wanting to break often tempers can flare.

Not only would it not be fair to expect her peers to have to deal with any crisis. Could you guarantee that they wouldn't accidentally make anything worse?
They may not have patience or the ability to support her if she needs it and if an argument starts would she be able to deal with herself?

I say I was fine physically after completing the expedition I did end up in hospital with a screwed up shoulder.

You have to remember that many kids are very sedentary and very infantilised these days!

It also completely depends on when they do it. One of mine found Silver a doddle compared to Bronze, but that’s partly because the weather was better and most importantly their group was much better and more evenly matched.

Hmm well some of my kids have done all levels of d of e and i don't think found it as challenging as all that!
You have to remember that many kids are very sedentary and very infantilised these days!
It all depends on the background of the students and the nature of the training programme. At my last couple of schools we do/did lots of morning and day walks with them, not just the two expeditions. Equally, some students have families who do lots of outdoor pursuits, walking, camping and others who might be quite sporty and fit but that doesn't always translate to hours walking. Equally, someone might already do lots of volunteering and their skill to a high level but have lots to learn on expedition. Not all children who struggle are infantalised or being wimpy.

You're right that some children are infantalised. For some DofE is the making of them and brings them out their shell because they realise they can do more on their own. For others they're not up to it and the cotton wool from home means the centre may start saying they should be considering if it's the right thing to do.

How did today’s trip go OP? What’s been decided going forward?

Yes we also did canoeing back in the day Donkey, (on icy scottish rivers after training in the pool first) lifeboat service as well and the hikes in the Cheviots / Keilder forest area. Still think the bronze and silver should not have kids in tears... I was a weedy think at the time and managed OK. Despite the horrendous Ssottish weather. Gold does sound a lot harder though.

Well, User, everyone is different, especially at age 14 when some boys haven’t even started puberty yet. They have different builds (a skinny 14 year old girl will find the weight of the kit heavier than a strapping 6 ft 15 year old would). They have different tolerances to cold, different ability to tolerate lack of sleep. Some kids are rubbish at sprinting short distances but have good stamina over long distance, others are naturally the opposite and so struggle towards the end of the day’s walking. Some girls will be on their periods on their expedition and will find it extra hard. Some will have colds but take part anyway and find it tougher than they otherwise would have. And actually, some kids seem to have different standards of kit. My son has a really high standard of kit as it’s his dad’s (who uses it for work). He stayed completely dry. Some of his friends got wet, not sure how. I suspect they had cheaper and less effective kit. My son also had a cold so wasn’t feeling great. I suspect if he had got wet then he would have been one of the whingeing ones.

There is absolutely no reason why every person who does the expedition should have the same experience as there are too many variables. No expeditions are the same either. If you get unseasonable or extreme weather, then one group will have a totally different experience to another which goes in perfect weather conditions.

Oh dear, this is playing out at my DC school at the moment...

The practice run a few weeks ago was an utter disaster with other children left to cope on their own with a child have an anxiety attack and refusing to continue. D of E is hard enough without being responsible for another child's welfare. The child with issues was told they couldn't go, now because the parents say they want them to, they are going - extremely stressful for the other children in their group.

From a pragmatic point of view, surely the practice is to see if the participants are capable. If they are not capable, they should not go on to do the full/real weekend.

If you are the parent of the a child with issues which may effect their capabilities to complete the D of E task, please consider the effect on the other children. (And also consider that your child saying they were ok on the practice may not be entirely true).

@gaelicgirl have you spoken to school on the behalf of your child? Schools tend to buckle to pressure. If you honestly think it will have a negative impact on your child again please get in contact and ask what had been put in place to avoid a repeat.

I'd expect at a very minimum increased staffing levels, with a closer supervision of the group in question (maybe someone tracking behind them)

Yellow. It's all got a bit silly, parents have requested their children aren't to be left alone to essentially 'look after' the child in question due to potential risks. But I think the parents of the child with issues has insisted they go.

My child isn't directly effected, but is very uncomfortable about the situation on behalf of their friends. Last time the whole group 'failed' as they were waiting for a long time for help.

It's not that I have no sympathy for the child in question, but I think there is a duty of care for the wider group.

Urgh, it sounds as a whole there isn’t enough supervision. As an assessor, no one ‘fails’ they are deferred and that’s only if they break one of the 20 conditions. Waiting for help due to something out of their control like mental health is not something that breaks a condition.

It sounds as though greater supervision is needed on a whole. I know it’s difficult and schools try to cut corners due to limited staff volunteers and qualified individuals but I would honestly expect the group containing the girl with MH problems to be assigned a dedicated supervisor, so not to take away support from any other group if needed.

It also completely depends on when they do it. One of mine found Silver a doddle compared to Bronze, but that’s partly because the weather was better and most importantly their group was much better and more evenly matched.

This ^

and 100% what CurlyhairedAssassin said.

I was talking to some DofE Leaders recently about 2 groups who had done the same (Bronze) award expedition in consecutive years. They'd done the same training and practice walks and given the same information to both groups. The one group were novices at it all and really, really struggled. The group the previous year had all done hiking with their Scout troop and then Explorer Unit, and all had decent kit, and all were able to put tents up without having to think about it, and all were used to lighting cookers, packing rucksacks, and had good navigational skills. The first group completed a very similar route in about half the time and without hardly breaking a sweat. The 2nd year the group found it really tough going, and, when arriving where they were going to camp, then struggled to put up the tents, get the cookers going, etc,.
Same trip, very different experiences.

Sounds like a terrible idea sorry OP.
Good luck with it all